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+--- Thread: Capital ships (/showthread.php?tid=52932)
Capital ships - Vladimir - 01-10-2011
So, we all know the problem with the capships, their setups and battles between them.
Basically, we have only two types of battleships - heavy-hitters (90%) and solaris platforms (10%).
Heavy hitters are either big or small, if they are big, they are just loaded with all kinds of STOP ****ING MY CRAPS YOU AUTOCHANGE - but mostly the primaries, which actually do the job done. If they are small, they are either loaded with just primaries and one mortar, like the osirs, and tend to try and stay far and bombard from there using their superiour agility against other battleships.
Solaris platforms are solaris platforms, and also only small bses can be used as them, and you know why.
Carriers are not carriers, it's just fancy name.
Then, we have cruisers. It's the same again - with big and stupid battlecruisersght carriers who try to close up and wtfpwn other cruisers or bombard bses with light mortars, with small agile destroyers and usual cruiers. Again, primaries+lm or two or solaris+lm or two. Some people try to use missiles but they suck and you know it. Unless it's bs missile agaisnt a snub, ye. Mind, two cruisers kill a battleship usually, because they just stay out of range and spam light mortars, and they have lower profile and more agility. Sometimes there are two razors for instaing snubs.
And don't make me start on gunboats because i'm tired already.
How the big battles go? Horde of battleships go into another horde and just focus-primary ships one by one. Ye, that's it. KNF BAF GRN event anyone? And cruisers and gunboats just suck at engagements like this. Unless, of course, someone wants this to be a boring lm-fest for a few hours. LM+thruster*2=dead battleship. Or those are pulse-razor horde of tridentes.
So, is this how we want them to work?
Nobody said yes so no.
Ye, i know 4.86 is going to have different slots for battleships, with a few heavy slots for heavy things like mortars, some slots for four times buffed primaries and a lot of slots for four times nerfed solarises. Meaning, even less diversity, everyone will be flying pretty much the same ships.
Booooring!
____________________________________________________________________________________
What i propose is this.
First, let's think of the role of carriers here. We could think for ages about implementing docking and all, we could wait it to happen in 4.87 (hahaha, right). By that time freelancer will probably be dead already. But i have a simpler solution.
Remember the suggestions about removing the bots and bats for caps? With buffing the hull at the same time so the result would be the same? Well, do it! And leave some bots for carriers. That way in a fight with carrier snubs would be able to resupply themselves at carrier. At the same time, being the carrier, it should probably be vulnerable to other caps, so it would be running around from battleships, cruisers, and other snubs, while shooting 345655464 solarises at snubs to keep caps useful.
That way it'd be interesting.
Then, the actual cap engagemets. Primaries are BORING! And the only forward cannon i've seen was on liberty siege cruiser and it didn't do anything valuable. I think there's another one somewhere, among blood dragons maybe, but that's kusari and nobody lives in kusari except anime and furries.
You can say it's stupid and BFGish, but in the game where we have aether instead of vacum, i don't think that'd be too bad. So.
How about actually splitting battleship weapons like this?
![[Image: typicalcapship.png]](http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7360/typicalcapship.png)
No, that's not a penis with tusks.
See, there are a few big bad cannons firing forward with really really low refire and high damage, two broadside battaries with slighty faster refire and lower damage, balanced in that way that it'd be a bit less powerful in just side-versus-nose fight, and frakton of point defense spamming everyone around. No big cannons firing backwards, too.
So that way battleships would HAVE to manuever, fly around, shoot from broadside, change the position, fire forward, fly around, try to position itself against enemy's ass, and by low refire i mean REALLY low one so that staying just one way and shooting from ons side would mean being stupid. Also, make them slower and less agile.
But capwhores must die, will say the majority of players. We want them to suffer! Well, ye, i love flying fighters myself, especially since i stopped sucking at them (relatively). But i have an idea on that too.
So, battleships didn't have shields back in vanilla. Why would the have them now? The only reason comes to mind is less annoying shaking.
Then, bombers aren't supposed to be a flying snac, right? I know i love snac, i even once shot 3 LPI LF's in a row with it, but hey, it's still overpowered uberweapon. Then bombers have novas, which suck because of shields. Seriously, i was once fighting corsair gb and bomber in a vidar, and bomber was dual nova. ONLY ONCE did he damage shields. Ye, hull damage would be big, but only gb could down it and it was stupid.
Soooo, how about... Bumping hull even more and making turrets bigger? And nerfing the nova's explosion range (so that they won't kill all the turrets in one shot, and stop killing allied snubs near bs or yourself with lag). And make battleships slower and less agile, remember? So that way SNAC would become a turret-killing weapon so that we snubwhores (i tend to be everything-whore) can still make lolwuts with big ships suffer. You know, i once shot off an LSF's VHF's shield with SNAC, so it won't be too hard with big turrets and slow battleships. And then, we have a solaris things. They shouldn't be TOO effective against snubs, but what else should they do? You know, buff the nova's damage and nerf it's turning rate to infinity so that you would need to actually aim it and . Also, make it both ammo-based and ~0.01 refire, and make it actually down-shootable by usual guns, but not cds. A hitpoint boost to projectile will be good enough. But make every hit hurt like hell!
So that way bombers vs battleships would look like this. Either bombers keel big bad turrets with snacs allowing allied caps to keel battleship, or they keel point defense and then launch novas, or they just launch novas and hope they won't be all shot down by point defense.
Then, give gunboats new roles. Make them torpedo boats! Make them point defense boats! Make them anything you want boats!
And cruisers, too. Do something to them. I dunno, really, maybe it'd be a smaller battleship with torpedoes instead of big bad forward cannons?
And ye, make different types of forward cannons, broadside cannons and PtD (like solarises, flaks - i know they suck, but maybe you'll think of something), and enjoy a complex battlefield with more tactics than either close down and wtfpwn or stay far and mortar!
YAY!
Yay?
Sorry for mistakes or anything, i didn't find the courage to read it again.
Capital ships - AeternusDoleo - 01-10-2011
A large portion of your comment stems from the focused-specialization of battleships. One of the changes pending in 4.86 is that battleship turrets will change - to heavy, standard and light classes. The heavy turrets can handle heavy weapons like mortars and razors, the standard ones primaries and secondaries and the like (including Cerbs), and the light turrets can handle point defenses such as Solaris. No battleship will be able to fully focus on one of these anymore, thus forcing all battleships into a more balanced, multipurpose role. I expect to see a lot of Cerberus-heavy battleships as a result.
Cruisers are fine as is. I'd love to see their primary weapons outrange the battleships though, they are designed as a long range platform. That'd give them a good reason to exist... right now only their missiles outrange battleships. And cruiser missiles have the same problem as novas in terms of scratching shields.
Capital ships - Enoch - 01-10-2011
Yay. I read an approved.
Is it going to happen ? Sadly I don't think so.
Capital ships - Vladimir - 01-10-2011
Quote:A large portion of your comment stems from the focused-specialization of battleships. One of the changes pending in 4.86 is that battleship turrets will change - to heavy, standard and light classes. The heavy turrets can handle heavy weapons like mortars and razors, the standard ones primaries and secondaries and the like (including Cerbs), and the light turrets can handle point defenses such as Solaris. No battleship will be able to fully focus on one of these anymore, thus forcing all battleships into a more balanced, multipurpose role.
Quote:Ye, i know 4.86 is going to have different slots for battleships, with a few heavy slots for heavy things like mortars, some slots for four times buffed primaries and a lot of slots for four times nerfed solarises. Meaning, even less diversity, everyone will be flying pretty much the same ships.
So, all the ships will become the same. And no additional tactics will arise, while old ones with specializing ships will go. Great.
Quote:Cruisers are fine as is. I'd love to see their primary weapons outrange the battleships though, they are designed as a long range platform. That'd give them a good reason to exist... right now only their missiles outrange battleships. And cruiser missiles have the same problem as novas in terms of scratching shields.
Quote:LM+thruster*2=dead battleship.
You see, cruisers ARE a long-range weapon platfroms. You probably never raided gamma with vidars. Yes, mortars from battleships can hit ~as far as LMs from cruisers. The difference is, you hit, they don't.
Capital ships - Vladimir - 01-10-2011
' Wrote:Yay. I read an approved.
Is it going to happen ? Sadly I don't think so.
Well, at least it's actually possible. All the changes can be made.
Capital ships - Enoch - 01-10-2011
Quote:Well, at least it's actually possible. All the changes can be made.People tend to dislike/be afraid of massive changes.
And seriously, are you asking for tactical Cap fights ? People are not going to like it.
Capital ships - dodike - 01-10-2011
I don't really know what to say. I think it's great.
Capital ships - Vladimir - 01-10-2011
Quote:People tend to dislike/be afraid of massive changes.
That doesn't stop devs from making that turret-splitting... thing. So they could change something a bit further. I hope.
Capital ships - Llama - 01-10-2011
To me i see that is has potentual. Yet i have seen BS tactic fights- one BS full solaris, One primary and one was cerbs... They did quite well.
Now i see what you are getting at- everyone will be the same... every cap the same fight.
True.
The downside of this? Well bombers wings will learn where to hit- how to hit. just memorise every BS or have atleast one person to tell the wing where- and the BS will fall.
The next downside would be that people would - ALOT would- dis-agree; however making this post you were far aware of that. Admins would be flooded with "WTFlolWUT?" while others- the smart people would be on the sides of "this would be interesting" and perhaps- in time, learn to do strategy in a BS fight.
Now with my post said; i'll post my opinion...
I agree that caps should not have specific hardpoints, yet i am open for idea's and admire that - it is/ could be- being changed.
I dis-agree with the fact of large cannons on the front of a ship- always have- always will. You see, in every movie/ space battle/ gameplay/ game a battleship is a horrific machine of power- unleashing all firepower from the sides of the ship.
Apart from that- I thankyou V for posting and creating this thread- it has surely opened my mind somewhat more.
Capital ships - Syrus - 01-10-2011
What I'd love to see is SNAC being removed and Novas finally doing some damage. I heard .86 fixes the shield problem? Would be nice.
Well, I'd say yes to Caps having no shields. At least Battleships and maybe even Cruisers.
Make Caps far (!) less agile. It'd be great if the handling of those big ships was like this, only maybe less agile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R40-ghf3Ws - but probably not going to happen. The problem with caps being bumped around has to be fixed though.
Their cruise should take really long to load and their drain should take long until it's energy is up again. So they won't cruise up to the enemies. I'd even go so far and remove cruise from BS, but might be a bit drastic (would diminish the amount of indy caps though. Hehe...). Of course they will need a hull and defense buff.
The main guns should have very long firingrange (3-5k) but less accurate...
So fighting with BS would be more like WW2 shipcombat.
Cruisers and Destroyers would be long range artillery with mortars while being in range of the heavy artillery (not mortars, but normal less-accurate guns) of the BS. Maybe the Mortars should be removed from BS then, replaced by the changes.
But well, that's just how I'd love to see cap battles. Epic, huge and slow ships firing at long range at each others, while bomber try to score hits with torpedos in close range, and being shot down by close-range weapons every now and then.