Discovery Gaming Community
Always a bigger fish? - Printable Version

+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+---- Forum: Discovery Mod Balance (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Always a bigger fish? (/showthread.php?tid=5441)

Pages: 1 2

Always a bigger fish? - Kazyumi - 01-10-2008

I might be quite new here, and this topic might be posted mostly because I'm disappointed with my latest purchase, but still I'd like to get something straight...
That, or just find out what you guys think.
Please don't make me out for a whiner because I feel disappointed about my purchase, it's not that I am really that bothered about wasting 120m with my trader char...

From what I've experienced, 2 gunboats can face any bigger ship, for example: a Battleship. (I've done it, and seen it done before)
Why?
Let me put it like this, the Gunboat has:
  • ++Agility, comparable to a fighter (turning is quite formidable, when compared to anything of a higher class)
  • +-Firepower, comparable to a cruiser (not same but almost as strong anyways)
  • -Armour (can't last long against bigger ships, but with its agility it won't be hit much anyways)
Cruiser:
  • +Firepower
  • --Agility, comparable to that of a battleship (not same but close)
  • --Armour, comparable to that of a gunboat
Battleship:
  • ++Firepower (if it wouldn't have it, it would be toast!)
  • ++Armour (making survival easier)
  • --Agility
1BS vs 1Gb or 1Cr, the battleship is the obvious victor over both - as it should be.
1BS vs 1Cr, -can't say that I know, but judging from its Agility and Armour there's NO chance - though I might be wrong so correct me if I am.
1Cr vs 1Gb, Gb wins due to it's great agility and equal firepower.

So... what can be done to make the cruiser worthwhile?


Always a bigger fish? - Jinx - 01-10-2008

hard to compare them like that - they rather take up different roles than compare to each other. a gunboat is quite agile and small, and usually used like a fighter ( chase view ). a cruiser / battleship is mostly slower and used in turret mode and relies on its turrets.



armor doesn not necessarily display survivability - a battleship has a lot of armor, but no way to evade damage, a gunboat has - to some extend. there are allways discussions about how they "should" be - but for most of it - its down to what you like the most - disregarding the stats.



the ships are not meant to be balanced perfectly. when it comes to efficiency - a gunboat beats most other ships, but that doesn t mean a battleship isn t good in certain situations or inefficient. - and after all its aswell down to what role you play.

Always a bigger fish? - RingoW - 01-10-2008

Have you tested all capships against each other with all different RP loadouts?
If not, well, you can guess what my suggestion is.

Respectful
AoM

Always a bigger fish? - pipsqueak - 01-10-2008

You are forgetting bombers....
...a good bomber pilot can really give a GB a run for its money. if the bomber pilot has a CD and a Super nova installed. As the GB can not turn as fast as the bomber now, and CD can take care of the slide turn. It has to rely on turret view to do damage, meaning it can not steer while firing on a good bomber pilot bomber. It takes time but a bomber pilot with patience can take out a GB.

Also The ships designs are to promote cooperative game play. You want to fly alone, buy a GB but if you meet a hostile bomber and a VHF fighter together.....run or die.

Always a bigger fish? - kiggles - 01-10-2008

' Wrote:You are forgetting bombers....
...a good bomber pilot can really give a GB a run for its money. if the bomber pilot has a CD and a Super nova installed. As the GB can not turn as fast as the bomber now, and CD can take care of the slide turn. It has to rely on turret view to do damage, meaning it can not steer while firing on a good bomber pilot bomber. It takes time but a bomber pilot with patience can take out a GB.

Also The ships designs are to promote cooperative game play. You want to fly alone, buy a GB but if you meet a hostile bomber and a VHF fighter together.....run or die.

Ok I have to comment on the part about using a CD. Am I the only person who realises how pointless it is to shoot a CD in combat unless to stop them from running away? I mean you have 70 CD's at max and one CD (if it hits) will take a ship out of engine kill, but there is no cool down timer all that must be done is pressing "z" again, and trust me I can press z more than 70 times.

Also if one bomber takes out a GB I would generaly say that the GB was not flown to well.

But related to the topic of the thread, yes cruisers do seem to be the weakest of the capital ships as they can't put out enough fire to kill a battleship (even the liberty cruiser with its forward gun) and a few fighters run rings around it but it lacks the battleships armor and shielding to defend its self from them. Though taking out a GB in a cruiser is not really that hard and if flown by decant pilots my money would always be on the cruiser. (though it is close sometimes)

Kiggles:mellow:

Always a bigger fish? - Kazyumi - 01-10-2008

' Wrote:hard to compare them like that - they rather take up different roles than compare to each other. a gunboat is quite agile and small, and usually used like a fighter ( chase view ). a cruiser / battleship is mostly slower and used in turret mode and relies on its turrets.
Well sure, its hard to compare things that serve other duties...
So can you please tell me what a cruiser does then? It can't take on a BS nor a GB, don't even bother fighting anything smaller.

' Wrote:armor doesn not necessarily display survivability - a battleship has a lot of armor, but no way to evade damage, a gunboat has - to some extend. there are allways discussions about how they "should" be - but for most of it - its down to what you like the most - disregarding the stats.
Well aware of that.

' Wrote:the ships are not meant to be balanced perfectly. when it comes to efficiency - a gunboat beats most other ships, but that doesn t mean a battleship isn t good in certain situations or inefficient. - and after all its aswell down to what role you play.
I didn't say anything was wrong with the Battleship, or even the Gunboat, but maybe the Cruiser class however?

' Wrote:Have you tested all capships against each other with all different RP loadouts?
If not, well, you can guess what my suggestion is.

Respectful
AoM
Yessir!
Well, not of all factions. But aye. As seen in my first post fight-change list.

' Wrote:You are forgetting bombers....
...a good bomber pilot can really give a GB a run for its money. if the bomber pilot has a CD and a Super nova installed. As the GB can not turn as fast as the bomber now, and CD can take care of the slide turn. It has to rely on turret view to do damage, meaning it can not steer while firing on a good bomber pilot bomber. It takes time but a bomber pilot with patience can take out a GB.
A good bomber can take on every cap ship 1 vs 1 depending on pilot skill (or might be in trouble with the massive armour of a Battleship, but I'm sure it beats it due to firepower and agility), and this topic was mainly about the cap ship balance. I am aware of that, that's why I didn't put in in ths list. You are right about that though.

' Wrote:Also The ships designs are to promote cooperative game play.
Good point. That's one way to justify it.

' Wrote:You want to fly alone, buy a GB but if you meet a hostile bomber and a VHF fighter together.....run or die.
Seconded.

Always a bigger fish? - El Nino - 01-11-2008

' Wrote:A good fighter bomber can take on every cap ship 1 vs 1 depending on pilot skill (or might be in trouble with the massive armour of a Battleship, but I'm sure it beats it due to firepower and agility), and this topic was mainly about the cap ship balance. I am aware of that, that's why I didn't put in in ths list. You are right about that though.

:rtfm::Pyeah, bombers rule, they take an imensive beating, while dealing damage at fighter efficiency,...:Pthe top of the food chain:):yahoo:i did some cunning flying feats in a bomber, but while you can evade capitalships indefenetly, you still cannot take them down so i guess that's balanced,...

Cruisers are somewhat poor it seems, they are somewhere in the middle of GB and BS range, without really being as useful as GB or as useless as battleships,... not briliant in combat and without staying power ....:Pbut hell what did you expect from a cruiser anyway:)it can take down A gunboat, and that's about it.

Always a bigger fish? - chopper - 01-12-2008

@kiggles

Point is.
Situation : 1 GB vs 1 Bomber.
GB and bomber are going face to face, bomber takes damage.
Bomber turns faster, GB is turning in ekill, and is on 40% when Bomber is fully turned.
Bomber fires and hits with a CD while GB is on 60% of the turn, and then fire while flying in opposite direction of GB's turning.
Never giving him a chance to even see him.
Believe me, 20 CD's are more then enough for a bomber to take down a GB.
And if you are flying backwards, and he cuts your engine kill, you'r not flying backwards anymore, and he's behind you.
Maybe you just didn't notice all this, or you are an expert in flying a GB.
Fighter can do exactly the same to a Bomber, in 1v1, if it's an agile fighter and a rock of a bomber (like Barghest or Civi).

Quote:Also if one bomber takes out a GB I would generaly say that the GB was not flown to well.

This is not really true as well. It works for both sides.
Maybe GB pilot was good, but Bomber pilot was better?
You can't tell. Until you die from a single bomber hand.
GB can be killed even by a fighter, 1v1, but very very hard, and that depends on which GB and fighter are used.

I voted incorrect. Because, you are globalizing.
There are some Cruisers that can take on a Battleship, if they are agile enough.
And Gunboat against Cruiser is not really something you can bet on.
It depends on the pilots again, very much.
I agree that Gunboats are overpowered, and Cruisers still very weak.
But, it all depends. Brettonian gunboat can take on a Cruiser very very hard.
Kusari GB as well.
Corsair GB is something between a GB and Cruiser.
It is very big, and turns slow, but it has 8 guns. It can take down any Cruiser, if flown properly.
But it is a big target for bombers. It is almost impossible to dodge Supernovas in it.
1 GB can take on a Battleship as well, hard, yes, but it's possible.

And difference between GB's, Cruisers and BS's is in weaponry.
Bigger ships can mount bigger weapons (Mortars), and if they hit even once, Gunboat turns to dust.

Further, GB is expected to be flown without escort. It is more like a Patrol vessel, capable for all kinds of situations.
BS shouldn't leave the base without 2 fighters to defend it.
2 fighters can, believe it or not, protect the BS from 2 gunboats.
And it is a lot easier then protecting BS from Bombers.

I had the same frustration that you have now. But it was about Gunships.
I don't know if you'v seen those in the last version, but i doubt it.
Because, in case you did, you should be praising the lord right now for these Gunboats, compared to the previous LH Gunships.


Always a bigger fish? - Panzer - 01-12-2008

A bit o firepower here, a bit there... Certain ships are good for certain jobs, gunboats aren't equal. For example: i'd take the IMG gunboat at any time I'd be encountering bombers - the thing is danm hard to nova. I'd take the corsair GB to blast awa ANY other gunboat one can buy. the 2 addiional weapon slots make me a real killa. However-the bigger size makes hitting me with a nova much easier.

Cruisers? i think size is key here - the smaller hebetter. There was a ime when I'd pwn any GB/CA/BC with my old Kusari dessie. It only has 9 gun slots, but its only slightly larger than a corsair GB. plus thruster = a cruiser gunned/shielded gunboat.

And finally bateships - in here it's the shield durability and weapons' range that does he job. As soon as your shield goes down - you know victory is far from certain.

Always a bigger fish? - kiggles - 01-12-2008

' Wrote:Maybe GB pilot was good, but Bomber pilot was better?
You can't tell. Until you die from a single bomber hand.
GB can be killed even by a fighter, 1v1, but very very hard, and that depends on which GB and fighter are used.
Well about the GB pilot being good, but bomber pilot being better. I would consider my self as an able Bomber pilot (not as good as I used to be but still pritty good) and Jamez (Skyshark) is definately a good (probaly the best) GB pilot and of all the times I have fought against him I think I might have won once maby twice. My point is that I have flown a bomber against many gunboats and unless they where flown poorly then they will generaly win.

And that you said about CD's still does not change the fact that if you CD a GB even when it is turning all the pilots has to do is to press the "Z" key and your CD has had no effect and I am pritty sure most people can press the z key in under a second so it really does nothing.

And for a fighter to kill a GB on its own, well that is really sad on the GB pilot as a fighters guns hardly do any damage to a GB's shield with its regen rate.

As for a GB taking on a BS? what kind of BS pilots are you flying against? as I said earlier Jamez is most likely the best GB pilot on the server but if he fought me in my BS I would not feel even the smallest bit in danger, though 2-3 GB's are a danger to a BS that is true.

A cruiser taking on a BS? once again I greatly doubt it unless it is a BS pilot who depends far to much on heavy infernos, battlerazors and mortars so when faced with a cruiser that turns like a GB can't hit it.

And a Bretonia GB taking on a cruiser. Well that is like a LF taking on a BS.... pritty much impossible unless the cruiser flys into a planet during combat as the Bretonia GB is as big as many cruisers and turns slower than some, combine that with lower hull than cruisers, less powerfull weapons and the Bretonia GB is a large death trap and though some people will probaly point out that the Bretonia GB forward gun does a fair bit of damage to a cruiser which is true, with its arc of fire you pritty much have to make a head on run against the cruiser to get a shot off and when you do than the cruiser can use any heavy weapons it has mounted even easier.

The Kusari GB stands far more of a chance fighting a cruiser as it is so small and fast it can avoid alot of shots though the cruiser should still win.

True the Corsair GB is large (though smaller than the Bretonia GB) and has alot of weapons and armor, though it will generaly still lost to a cruiser purely due to firepower and armor values.

Kiggles:mellow: