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+--- Thread: Pirates/Engagement rules (/showthread.php?tid=95823)
Pirates/Engagement rules - Karst - 03-21-2013
Yay, yet another thread about piracy.
So, I'm a little confused about what is necessary to initiate an engagement as a pirate.
The ID states
Can demand cargo and credits from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply.
Obvious enough. However, I've been browsing previous rule discussion threads regarding this, and it seems like the existence of
Quote:6.6 Aggressors are not allowed to destroy a trade vessel prior to issuing a demand, in system or local chat, and allowing sufficient time to respond. Demands may be cargo, credits or an RP demand, such as leaving the system. "Halt" is not a demand. You must say more than this to ask a ship to stop however you may destroy them if they attempt escape.
actually turns it into
Can demand cargo, credits, or a reasonable RP action from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply.
An example: I'm a pirate, chilling out by a trade lane waiting for a target of opportunity. Some freelancer/corporate player, anyone, shouldn't really matter for the situation, comes by and starts hanging around.
Obviously, I'm not keen on having spectators when pirating.
So, am I acting within the rules when I tell them something like: "Buzz off or you'll be in trouble, I'm trying to work here", and attack them if they do not leave?
Slightly different example: I've stopped a trader, asked for money/cargo, and they give it to me, but don't leave afterward or start following me around.
Obviously, I can't immediately request more money or cargo of them, since it isn't a new encounter. But can I, as above, tell them to go away and attack them if they don't comply?
Finally, I came across this thread, and parts of the discussion such as this:
(02-17-2012, 10:03 PM)Agmen of Eladesor Wrote: "Hey, Mr. Transport, you're blocking the space lanes and being a hazard to general navigation. Move your ship out of the way."
That's a valid and in-RP demand, regardless of WHO makes it. You're not pirating them, are you? You're role-playing with them - and you've screen shotted that you role played, right?
So then the Freelancer/Junker/concerned citizen then makes a role-play comment like, "I'm detecting no life signs on board your ship, #t. We are detecting unsafe levels of radiation. Is there anyone who can respond, before we have to destroy your ship as being unsafe and a hazard to the general good?"
You can ALWAYS find an in-RP reason to blow someone up if you're willing to work at it. The big thing is that you give the person that's AFK enough time to finish going pee or getting his coke - and if after a reasonable amount of time of you RP'ing with no response - typically 3 - 4 minutes or so - then vaporize him.
lead me to believe that I can, actually, engage anyone with any ID (with the exception, I assume, of things like the Recruit ID which specifically states they can only shoot in self-defense), as long as I have a sufficiently good RP reason to do so, state that reason in a sufficiently RP'd way, and give the other person sufficient time to react.
For example: I'm flying a freelancer carrying contraband. I meet another ship and they start following me around. Much as in the case of being a pirate, I don't want company when I'm smuggling.
Can I then tell them to leave me alone in a similar manner as above, and attack them if they don't comply after a reasonable amount of time?
Finally - as far as I can make out, if the other person in any of the above situations is not level thirty yet, I cannot attack them in any of those cases since it doesn't fall under any of the exceptions to 5.3, which includes watching a battle and not leaving when told to, but not other things you might not want them to see.
This seems like a pretty serious loophole to me, since an under level 30 could theoretically fly around following pirates or smugglers, taking screenshots and submitting them to the authorities and the pirate/smuggler wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Thankfully, this has never happened to me and I guess it's unlikely to, but under the rules I suppose it could.
Anyway, thanks for any answers.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Lythrilux - 03-21-2013
I agree with you completely.
Niggles likd this really annoying me when I'm piratinf
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Narcotic - 03-21-2013
So do I. If the 'annoyance' is above rank 30, and you're having a RP reason, you can blow him away. On the other hand, when he's below rank 30, and somehow abusing his protection/immunity in order to troll/annoy, you should try to report him for it.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - nOmnomnOm - 03-21-2013
5.3 Characters that are level 29 and below are considered to be low ranked players and may only be attacked if at least one of the following conditions is met:
a) They attack you first by draining your shields to 50% or disrupt your cruise engines.
b) They are at the scene of a battle between yourself and someone else and refuse to leave when told to leave. (Low ranked players should leave the area when combat takes place or accept the risk of being attacked if remaining. Onlookers are fair targets.)
c) Low ranked players who possess a CODENAME weapon may be attacked within roleplay at any level according to the piracy requirements.
d) Attacking a player base.
Part B says the answer you are looking for in lvl 30 dudes.
NOW about pirating.
You need to look at your ID. A freelancer for example cant shoot anyone without a bounty on them. So no you can openly engage anyone and say *bug off*
As for when pirating its perfectly logical to say this and then open fire. I know even for LR- that we can tell other pirates to bug off if they are interrupting official business or something of that sort.
As for if you can attack your own faction members... HA... you can try but you'll be punished for it, unless you have a REAALLLY good reason to do so. Not exactly sure myself but this thing shouldn't happen anyway.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Challenger - 03-21-2013
I think you're worrying overmuch about nothing. RP Well and keep your combat within reasonable limits (no werewolves), and you should have nothing to worry about.
The most memorable example I can recall was someone addressing this in a similar thread. Basically, as a trader, you can sit stock still in space while a pirate talks up and down about how he's going to kill you if he doesn't get any money/cargo. Once he's done talking, it's perfectly within the rules to open fire without a word; the pirate has provided sufficient RP to merit weapons free.
The rules aren't meant to restrict your right to the trigger. The common misconception that Engagement Notice = RP doesn't help. Did Han Solo give Vader an engagement notice on Cloud City? No, because the situation and the look on his face were all the justification viewers needed. All you're asked to do is make your character believable, and play your role.
Whatever that may be.
(03-21-2013, 06:30 PM)Karst Wrote: Finally - as far as I can make out, if the other person in any of the above situations is not level thirty yet, I cannot attack them in any of those cases since it doesn't fall under any of the exceptions to 5.3, which includes watching a battle and not leaving when told to, but not other things you might not want them to see.
This seems like a pretty serious loophole to me, since an under level 30 could theoretically fly around following pirates or smugglers, taking screenshots and submitting them to the authorities and the pirate/smuggler wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Disco jailbait. Sucks, but on the off chance that they're actually new players you want that rule in place.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Karst - 03-21-2013
Thanks for the quick and encouraging comments everyone.
(03-21-2013, 06:42 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: 5.3 Characters that are level 29 and below are considered to be low ranked players and may only be attacked if at least one of the following conditions is met:
a) They attack you first by draining your shields to 50% or disrupt your cruise engines.
b) They are at the scene of a battle between yourself and someone else and refuse to leave when told to leave. (Low ranked players should leave the area when combat takes place or accept the risk of being attacked if remaining. Onlookers are fair targets.)
c) Low ranked players who possess a CODENAME weapon may be attacked within roleplay at any level according to the piracy requirements.
d) Attacking a player base.
Part B says the answer you are looking for in lvl 30 dudes.
Well, b) covers a battle scene, but I don't see how it relates to situations such as those described above.
Quote:NOW about pirating.
You need to look at your ID. A freelancer for example cant shoot anyone without a bounty on them. So no you can openly engage anyone and say *bug off*
That's what I thought as well, however in a number of threads, such as the one I linked above, comments by people like Agmen and AD, people who I believe know what they're talking about, suggest that I can in fact engage someone with a good RP reason regardless of ID. Scenarios like someone following around a smuggler and refusing to leave when asked to seem to me at least to constitute such a reason.
(03-21-2013, 06:49 PM)Challenger Wrote: I think you're worrying overmuch about nothing. RP Well and keep your combat within reasonable limits (no werewolves), and you should have nothing to worry about.
Heh, no worries, I'm not looking to justify any sort of "pvp all" character, I'm just wondering about situations like those described which don't seem to be covered by the ID rules, but from what I've seen are in fact within the server rules.
Quote:Disco jailbait. Sucks, but on the off chance that they're actually new players you want that rule in place.
I totally understand that 5.3 is needed. I was wondering about some amendment that could prevent stuff like that, but sadly I can't think of anything that wouldn't be open to abuse.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - jammi - 03-21-2013
Asking someone to leave an area is a valid RP demand. If the other party decides to ignore it, you're covered by 6.6 to take em out. Fill your boots.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - nOmnomnOm - 03-21-2013
(03-21-2013, 07:54 PM)jammi Wrote: Asking someone to leave an area is a valid RP demand. If the other party decides to ignore it, you're covered by 6.6 to take em out. Fill your boots.
That being said.... its best not to go around saying GET AWAY FROM ME and shooting everyone. That would be an abuse of the rule.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Lythrilux - 03-21-2013
(03-21-2013, 07:54 PM)jammi Wrote: Asking someone to leave an area is a valid RP demand. If the other party decides to ignore it, you're covered by 6.6 to take em out. Fill your boots.
That applies to <29?
(03-21-2013, 08:02 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote:(03-21-2013, 07:54 PM)jammi Wrote: Asking someone to leave an area is a valid RP demand. If the other party decides to ignore it, you're covered by 6.6 to take em out. Fill your boots.
That being said.... its best not to go around saying GET AWAY FROM ME and shooting everyone. That would be an abuse of the rule.
I can imagine someone RPing a socially awkward pirate right now.
RE: Pirates/Engagement rules - Ursus - 03-21-2013
(03-21-2013, 06:30 PM)Karst Wrote: So, I'm a little confused about what is necessary to initiate an engagement as a pirate.No. The ID and the rule cover different things. The rule does not expand your ID restrictions, it defines an additional restriction specifically for cargo ships. The rule is separate because different IDs have different demand requirements--the indy pirate may only demand credits and/or cargo, while a Rogue can demand anything, but both of them must make some kind of demand from a trade vessel before killing it.
The ID states
Can demand cargo and credits from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply.
Obvious enough. However, I've been browsing previous rule discussion threads regarding this, and it seems like the existence of
Quote:6.6 Aggressors are not allowed to destroy a trade vessel prior to issuing a demand, in system or local chat, and allowing sufficient time to respond. Demands may be cargo, credits or an RP demand, such as leaving the system. "Halt" is not a demand. You must say more than this to ask a ship to stop however you may destroy them if they attempt escape.
actually turns it into
Can demand cargo, credits, or a reasonable RP action from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply.