[Theoretical] Official Faction Challenge System

[Shimamori]

Oh boy, it derailed so fast.

I suppose, some changes can work out but it won't be discovery freelancer anymore. And I am not sure if people actually playing Disco for disco will keep playing. You can also wait for "Aftermath" to be deployed - perhaps competition will drive people to think of something new. If "Aftermath" is ever released, that is.

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[Gardarik]

Haven't you considered a wild idea that conserving freelancer is what actually keeps it alive? If people wanted the mechanics yo uare suggesting, there are plenty of games that are newer and have realized it better. X4 Foundations mentioned above is an example. Elite Dangerous has a much better fighting, EVE has better strategic, economic, and diplomatic components, etc, etc. Freelancer will not ever be able to compete with those just because it is old. Let those who enjoy it for what it is keep enjoying it I am not a subconscious subverter --I am criticising and approaching you consciously, fully understanding why and which points of your suggestions I don't like. I do believe that those changes will allow for a huge system abuse and degrade the drama even worse And I do think about the greater good of the mod --your suggestions will not bring good, at least in the form you proposed. In a refined limited version --probably there will be a good test. Otherwise, it is a revolution, not ev olution. Disco won't handle another revolution. Mind, that most popular 4.85 version was devoid of all of that, suggesting it is something else that impacts the popularity (also, age).

PS "Oppnonents to this stuff practically seem programmed or brainwashed" --it does make you look like a messiah-ish dude who thinks he is the only one right and everyone else is wrong. I too have a lesson for life, folks. In my academic pursuits, some of my research proposals got shut down by the seniors and experienced researchers for various reasons. If you are marching forward without taking into consideration valid criticism, it can end up in a poorly-cooked work that can get you expelled.

[Binski]

PS "Oppnonents to this stuff practically seem programmed or brainwashed" --it does make you look like a messiah-ish dude who thinks he is the only one right and everyone else is wrong. I too have a lesson for life, folks. In my academic pursuits, some of my research proposals got shut down by the seniors and experienced researchers for various reasons. If you are marching forward without taking into consideration valid criticism, it can end up in a poorly-cooked work that can get you expelled.

I hate to ad hominem but to me your opposition is the perfect example of insanity, as in, doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. Or you don't care about things staying the same, which is mostly decline over the course of years. So it only feels like insecurity causing people to cling to keeping things the same when it is not set up to be optimal for player activity. I see it as a weak justification to not try for more under the argument its to spare us fights or save rp. Its to save some people their easy RP monopolies. So claiming its dangerous is like being a discovery "doomer". A system clearly prevents a divulgence into chaos.

Again, not to attack the poster, but your concern with potential messiahdom seems to give away insecurity that you feel someone else may win some imaginary competition. I could make the same arguments in return for such strong opponents that may just be making it seem they are saving the server, but are only after saving themselves inconvenience at the expense of many others. This place has been caught in a vicious cycle for years. This concept shouldn't be so revolutionary, its not that crazy, we've just been too locked here for too long. Its like stockholm syndrome, like some advocate against having more freedom because they only know captivity.

So I'm not sad if you are offended by my efforts and feel emanciated by us messiahs. I consider myself more of a modern wizard actually, and the trolls here keep this place suppressed! Don't listen to them! Take up arms! Fight!

[Gardarik]

PS "Oppnonents to this stuff practically seem programmed or brainwashed" --it does make you look like a messiah-ish dude who thinks he is the only one right and everyone else is wrong. I too have a lesson for life, folks. In my academic pursuits, some of my research proposals got shut down by the seniors and experienced researchers for various reasons. If you are marching forward without taking into consideration valid criticism, it can end up in a poorly-cooked work that can get you expelled.

I hate to ad hominem but to me your opposition is the perfect example of insanity, as in, doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. Or you don't care about things staying the same, which is mostly decline over the course of years. So it only feels like insecurity causing people to cling to keeping things the same when it is not set up to be optimal for player activity. I see it as a weak justification to not try for more under the argument its to spare us fights or save rp. Its to save some people their easy RP monopolies. So claiming its dangerous is like being a discovery "doomer". A system clearly prevents a divulgence into chaos.

Again, not to attack the poster, but your concern with potential messiahdom seems to give away insecurity that you feel someone else may win some imaginary competition. I could make the same arguments in return for such strong opponents that may just be making it seem they are saving the server, but are only after saving themselves inconvenience at the expense of many others. This place has been caught in a vicious cycle for years. This concept shouldn't be so revolutionary, its not that crazy, we've just been too locked here for too long. Its like stockholm syndrome, like some advocate against having more freedom because they only know captivity.

So I'm not sad if you are offended by my efforts and feel emanciated by us messiahs. I consider myself more of a modern wizard actually, and the trolls here keep this place suppressed! Don't listen to them! Take up arms! Fight!

Funnily, what you use is actually not ad hominem per se, lol. Whatever. Perhaps, indeed I am insane, that is as you said doing the same thing over and over, that is debating with you seeing that there is no point to it. Still, same insanity pattern then can be applied to you as you are doing the same stuff over and over again - trying to push RTS mechanics into a space sim despite overwhelming opposition of the community, still clinging on the same ol' song "you are just close-minded bigots and cannot understand the perfection of my plan!". Thing is, we do. I do understand the point of your suggestions and I do even see the merits to it in case of limited application. You are right, this place has been in a state of decline for years and trying to liven it up is a good undertaking. Hell, even I am bored and quite often have no motivation to log or do any RP. Still, I do not think (and many other players in this very thread think similarly as they expressed) that your suggested system will change things for the better. Biggest reason for that - it does not address the reasons for decline at all. Personally, I would not enjoy what you are suggesting and most likely will quit although after having given a fair try. Realising how many cheesy ways to gameplay your suggested changes would open, I don't think my "fair try" would last long. Just let this place be. If people wanted strategy games in space - they would play strategy games in space. Luckily, there are some good ones.

And please, spare me of your ridiculous presumptions that I want to win some debate. This "debate" is basically only a demagogy - words for the sake of words. Nothing said here will impact anything. Yet I like demagogy and funny arguments like your "ad hominem" about doing the same stuff while literally it is you who are doing the same stuff over and over. Please, keep entertaining us, really enjoying it.

[Binski]

Snip

Yes but after a certain point you've gone beyond making arguments and indicate you are just locked on, or have to get the last word on someone else's thread. So yeah it is just trolling out of fear now and you can't accept you said your piece and move on. All you prove to me is that anyone so terrified of us having such a system is part of the problem as to why this place will not even try to make a turn around. We should be open to trying a new avenue to gameplay without assuming it will be chaos, as thats the weakest argument, or you really didn't read the OP.

Its a huge shame we have such players to deal with because the place could really stand to try new things finally. Anyone on the dev team or admin team with any sense please ignore all of the contrarians, it is as if they want to keep this place suppressed to maintain their own unfair advantage. Its killed the mod for enough years now, continuing to do the same thing over (keeping it the same) will only guarantee the same result, as will staying in denial. Its a easier than everyone thinks to change this place to allow for fresh growth, or basically people argue its a write off and not bother. That can't be the case just yet. There is something wierd about only one side ever having its say though. Well its a true travesty, a genuine anomaly.

Time to realize, this mod needs an injection of new things, new options, new prospects, or its not really worth playing anymore. It could be way more populated if we just created an open ended situation again and created some new reasons to keep players online. If staff can't or won't do that, they should do what it takes to get people that can and will regularly operate the game. I'll never believe anything I've suggested is far fetched at all. So you can keep trying to paint me as a villian but I know any critical thinker can tell otherwise.

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The Further Exploits of Captain Antares (August 2015) │ (alt) JonasHudson
*Argo | Special Operative ID (Approved Request)* | Argo Compilation Video
################ *Proposed OF Challenge System* ################
############### The Book of Piracy (Piracy Tutorial) ###############
############### Binski Alamo (Youtube Channel) ###############

[Binski]

Continued Case For An Official Challenge System

Just keeping the dream alive and serious discussion is always welcome. I wish to continue to argue the case for adopting a regulated system by which official factions can make 'moves' against NPC bases that meet their rules of engagement requirements. I have proposed the exact same system that governs the engagement of POB's. This doesn't need to happen overnight but getting a start on this would be the start of a new direction here, and it seems like a good time for a restart.

Adopting a system like this will allow for a new level of roleplay and story involvement. It won't govern all story development, but will allow for a bare minimum of story to remain ongoing between major story turns. All we need is a team to carry out and operate the system.

The basic premise remains the same, use scidata as a currency for earning an 'attack' on an NPC base by an official faction, as dictated by their ZOI and ID rules of engagement. The attack would be a siege event, and would require making the targeted base an attackable object for 7 days. If the base can be reduced to 0 HP, it changes IFF to that of the attacking faction (captured). This can be challenged immediately however by opposing factions if they are able to 'buy' a counter attack event of their own. The system is to fight over bases, not destroy them (although I wrote that if a base could be held for 6 straight months, self destruction could be purchased with more scidata, that is an option anyways).

There are many advantages to using this system:

-It creates a new in-game based, player drivable activity with practical value.

-It creates an openly accessible system that guarantees equal opportunity to make gains or to challenge outcomes, by all parties involved. It sets out what can and cannot be done well in advance and ensures most influence by players must be done in-game (& forum), not via oorp private relationships.

-It encourages official faction membership, as official factions become direct driving forces on the server, with even more ability to exert force on the map. To have your effect on some story, a player can always find an appropriate faction to join and contribute to.

-It creates a perpetual 'capture the flag' back and forth battle ability that functions in a way that ensures that group effort raises the chances for victory, yet no outcome is forcibly permanent, and a purpose can always be derived from either end of a factional conflict (maintaining holdings, or taking them back). This is the most important part, as it should allow for a perpetual state of increased activity.

-It focuses player activity around naturally forming events/activities.

-It generates more opportunity for players to make greater utilization of their earned resources and skills.

-It creates inevitable roleplay and consequence enforceable activity.

-It allows for official factions as groups to form greater plans, secret strategies, secret efforts/projects.

-It guarantees a new atmosphere here that there are always new developments and opportunities for new players.

-It creates a constant need to consume certain resources by players, forcing greater use of built up levels of in game currency, scidata, and player built equipment (preventing economic stagnation).

At the moment it still feels like the place is in slow motion. I still firmly believe that this can change rather easily and that we would all feel that the future of our involvement here will be much more fulfilling. As I write this there are 5 people online. Why not log to fly even at this hour? Easy, nothing new to do. Change that, and even late at night we'd see dozens more online than now. That makes spontaneous logging much better for everyone else, and a bigger average population makes it better for everyone in the long run. Remember when Discovery always had dozens of people online and only the little servers had 5 people online? Well I think we're there.

Scenarios

Take a few example scenarios:

Omega-3 Map

In Omega 3 We have 5 potential bases for challenge over. Several factions have ZOI in this area that can otherwise lay siege to POB's. Yes, the point is, that any one of these factions could begin trying to change the map a bit slowly in their favor, or stage of big surprise and pull a fast one, if well prepared in advance. It gives factions a lot more to plan around, roleplay for help over, form bonds/treaties, etc.

According to the system, groups like the Corsairs and Red Hessians could capture the civilian bases if not fended off. Each attack would be a chance to bring in attention from smaller groups if the target base has no active faction. Most bases are covered by house military ZOI's, or another large ZOI faction. This of course, is exactly where a huge avenue of opportunity opens for prospective faction forming.

Omega-48 Map

Omega-48 is very similar. Both systems have vulnerable planets, the capture of which would be of huge importance. With this system, it can all develop and unfold naturally by way of the players using their factions to try to earn their gain. Again, should any faction succeed, that outcome can always be challenged if there are other factions being well maintained, and the whole thing becomes incentive to do just that. In every case, a balance will be achieved after the first initial challenges over any area. At least the keeping of a real balance will be the point of playing and staying involved.

Any factions that may succeed in capturing Gran Canaria would change the balance out there greatly, and would allow for others to take action, like those from Bretonia. If a faction did attack the planet, there would be plenty of chances for the other interested factions to counter the move and play to the action. Most of the time, a siege may be thwarted by a diligent defense that will run up the clock on the siege event in general. Yet at least the ability to really try allows us to work on something related to the effort 24/7.

Omicron-Xi Map

Omicron Xi is my Outcast vs Corsairs example. In this case, if the Outcasts wanted to try, they could try to remove the Corsair military presence with earned sieges of their ships/bases, and try to capture the moon of Amorgos. Again, this would not be easy. The system is arranged so that it is likely this will take several tries, and each conflict is likely to remain stuck at certain focal points, until one side clearly outmatches the other (which may be never depending on the popularity of the issue).

You can see that all of these moves would require huge amounts of scidata, that would take weeks, perhaps months to earn, so attacks could not be too frequent, and the overall frequency of the events can be controlled by controlling the availability of scidata, and its value. The need to constantly mine, or play to generate funds to buy the data, to keep your faction in the game, also keeps the server alive and focused on real achievable goals. That part of the system is why people would return, and stay more, since it guarantees equal ability to counter each other in the game more so than on the forums, or through oorp relationships.

Sigma-17 Map

Sigma-17 is another example for potential expansion by the Outcasts or Corsairs. The Outcasts would certainly eye Planet Kurile, or Atka (finally), and the Corsairs would be concerned with stopping those moves. There isn't much for Outcasts to try to grab in Sigma-19, but Sigma-17 is only a short trip beyond, and parties like the GMG may be weak enough to pull the rug out from under them. Can they hold their own out there? Find allies to help out? Reinforce the area to 'dig in'? (POB's).

And, at the very least, if both parties decided war is not favorable for either, they can make a real deal to keep things as they are there. And then a few months later a new group gets their officialdom that wants to rock the boat anyways, and we see how it plays out.

If anyone has any scenarios they think would be troublesome or in a grey area, feel free to discuss.

Conclusion

The bottom line is that this system ensures much more fair opportunity for players to maintain their interests by playing the game, not arguing on the forums or discord. I rarely ever argued with people here except about this topic. I have never sieged or destroyed anyone's bases, removed your NPC bases suddenly, forced the removal of factions, or whole planets from play. I just want to see a more alive and modernized server so that I and the rest of us can get back to fulfilling activity. As far as I can see, this system should benefit everyone by generating a lot more business and trade, which will be more linked to driving the story of the game world. If we can get this system set up we can begin a whole new era of gameplay & roleplay that will always be fresh and exciting! It's never been the game that's the problem here, it's how we've used it.

Support is always welcomed! There's still a solid community here, it's not too late to make more use out of the place to keep it lively in the long term!

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The Further Exploits of Captain Antares (August 2015) │ (alt) JonasHudson
*Argo | Special Operative ID (Approved Request)* | Argo Compilation Video
################ *Proposed OF Challenge System* ################
############### The Book of Piracy (Piracy Tutorial) ###############
############### Binski Alamo (Youtube Channel) ###############