Revert cruiser slots changes

[Corvo Gotti]

In a nutshell, I think Discovery suffers from treating its capital ships like oversized smallcraft. Primarily forward facing guns, some restricted arcs here and there, with slower fire rates and projectile speeds to balance out their loadouts against smallcraft, but ultimately just bulky smallcraft with restrictive turn rates. The problem with this is that it creates the aforementioned stale gameplay of "fly straight at enemy and hold right click". This is okay to have, to a degree, with smallcraft because the goal is to strike hard and fast and then quickly get away. Capital ships do not have this maneuverability nor should they have it. Discovery's attempts to change this do not actually change it, because you have positioned the weapon arcs all over the ship, making the gameplay loop the same - fly at enemy (to fire mortars, etc.), turn (maybe fire a few broadside shots), then kite and try to out-range as much as possible.

I'm just gonna quote this instead of quoting your entire post, as it makes a better tldr in my opinion, and say that you clearly aren't "back into the game" enough. The stuff that you list that should be done to cap ships and everything you list as what discovery does wrong are all things already realized by Haste.

It makes reading your post really funny when you make all those remarks about how broadside combat with powerful broadside guns is what capships need - and not powerful front guns to reinforce a chasing playstyle - when that's literally how the game is already played. Try Battlecruisers if you haven't already and you'll see all those things in effect.

Rotational turrets =/= broadside weaponry. The majority of said turrets can fire in all directions, leading to - as Haste put it: "very large snubcraft with turretsteer (and -zoom)"

The current design is effectively just this with a few quirks such as BC's having a backwards facing heavy with abysmal turret turn speed, effectively making it a rear-gun in most situations, leading to the kiting and ranging meta. Those "things" I mentioned in the post you clearly skimmed while rolling your eyes are absolutely not in effect, though the vestiges of a process to get nearer to there seem to be happening. The problem is that this weird half-transition takes away the strengths Disco's caps had before while pushing caps more into the territory of "very large snubcraft with turretsteer (and -zoom)" because the arcs and ranges continue to reinforce snub-like piloting. Dive, turn, kite, dive again or chase.

Forward firing weaponry, whether they be fixed like on snubs, etc. or from turrets should only be on ship classes expected to either be primarily firing forwards, or firing all weapons in all directions (such as transports, whose weapons are designed with maximum coverage because the intent isn't to dogfight, it's to keep moving while firing).

Backwards firing weaponry, whether they be fixed, turrets, or mines, should only be on ship classes expected to be primarily or regularly retreating. (Great for transports and Gunboats, as transports will likely be fleeing a battle and gunboats will likely be in the thick of a battle with hostiles on their tail, especially given they lack the maneuverability to handle hostiles by out-maneuvering).

Large capitals should not be either of these in my opinion. Their weapons, with few exceptions, should never fire in a movement direction because these large vessels should never be diving or retreating.

When dealing with large, lumbering ship types I find that naval-style combat and control just feels better. Heavy cannons that only fire to the side, utility weapons and specialty weapons that only fire forwards (these weapons should always be niche, such as chaser weapons designed to disable or a single heavy weapon such as the iconic Liberty cannon) and a small number of 360* weapons for things like point defense, with said point defense being designed primarily to strip shields and suppress smallcraft rather than outright kill.

[Australopithecus]

"gameplay reasons for the god of gameplay reasons" ....

I do respect the changes and the poll. But i don't think it's as viable as it sounds.
My whole point was "main armament" situation.

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[Fab]

The changes for cruisers and battlecruisers feel artificial because they are artificial. I once mentioned in the playtester channels how the backwards cruiser (even on the initial new battlecruiser heavies) weapons feel unnatural especially on slots and ships where previously such weapons were safely able to do full turns. It's a chronic problem that lasts for more than a decade on how capital ships were modeled as if they were enormous fighters, with all guns trying to fire forwards, with little care for rear and broadside ship modelling and placement. This is why limited arc guns feel extremely jarring, even silly, to look at.

I think we all can agree that remodeling every single cap to fit the new gameplay is out of the question.

Back to the original topic, I think creating new, exclusively defensive slot weapons like the battlecruiser heavy treatment and moving the 3 fan favorites (shard, impact, storm) back to the front a good start. Even better if some weapons like the tachyon, blasters and repeaters are allowed to be placed anywhere and able to do full turns as I can now have many more so called viable loadouts. I've been dueling in conn almost exclusively with my cruisers, and the two options consisting of tachyon/mortar becomes dull very quickly.

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[Akhetaten]

The current design is effectively just this with a few quirks such as BC's having a backwards facing heavy with abysmal turret turn speed, effectively making it a rear-gun in most situations, leading to the kiting and ranging meta

I don't like being that guy, but this sounds like a skill issue. Part of playing BCs involves keeping track of where your heavy points both in relation to your ship and the enemy ship in real time at all times during combat. If I had to guess I'd say this comment of yours comes from a gamer without roll keys bound. Trust me, you rarely ever (if ever at all) use the BC heavy as a rear turret in BC duels - most of the time you simply adjust your positioning to allow for it's use while on broadside passes. It's part of the class' skill expression to know exactly how much you should risk in order to get some good shots in. How much you can show your own weakpoints in order to attack the enemy's weakpoints. I could go on, you probably get the point by now.

Those "things" I mentioned in the post you clearly skimmed while rolling your eyes are absolutely not in effect, though the vestiges of a process to get nearer to there seem to be happening. The problem is that this weird half-transition takes away the strengths Disco's caps had before while pushing caps more into the territory of "very large snubcraft with turretsteer (and -zoom)" when instead, in my opinion, a completely different playstyle is refreshing and feels better for large, slow vessels.

I really think you're missing the entire gameplay revolving around BCs, and I can ensure you I've thoroughly read all your posts so far as I literally have nothing better to do with my time.

Spend some more time pewing in BCs, use your roll keys. Try to remember that you're not flying a ship with a big gun on it, but a big gun with a ship attached. Position around your heavy and around it's arcs and not the opposite. Maybe even restrict yourself to only get in positions where your heavy can be shot broadside.

It's a very fun class to fly and fight in and it's a shame to see such negative commentary on it when honestly that commentary feels clueless.

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[Antonio]

I understand. But then I have to say, with the main BC gun as it is now, it's a kiting only game against most other classes.
Against GBs, none of the Cruiser guns are viable unless the GB gets really close to your face. The kiting gun is the most useful among all available options, yet still only if the GB is somewhat close and is chasing you.
Against Cruisers, if the opponent is an experienced player, they can just keep at their max shooting distance and slowly kill you. The cruiser can easily outmaneuver all available cruiser weapons when the BC is charging. Spamming missiles is probably the best option in this case, and yet if the opponent is experienced, they'd still figure their way around it. The heavy gun is the most useful, but again only when the cruiser chases you and gets closer to you. And well if you stop charging and turn to use your main gun, they can just stay away until you're left with no option but to charge them again.

I highly suggest you try the new snap aim button under Options -> Controls -> Multiplayer -> Toggle Reticle Snap. It's a game changer when fighting equal or smaller ships than you. When I playtested cruisers against Haste's BC he was hitting light mortars on me before I even got a reticle on him with my guns on max range, meaning BCs can very much hit cruisers now from the cruiser's max range, with both the cruiser heavies and the BC heavy. It's simply a matter of learning the new "easy blindfire" mechanic.

All cap players should learn it, not just cruiser enjoyers. The larger the ship the more applicable it is, meaning it's the most important on battleships as you will be using it against all classes. It's arguably the largest stealth buff big caps got in 5.1.

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[Harcourt Fenton Mudd]

snip

I mean, reading between the lines a bit here this really comes across as you just wanting the old cruisers back which were objectively the best capital class in the game both in a duel and in a group setting. Their simplicity came from pure ease of use to be completely honest.

TBH that sums up why I dislike them, ease of use.... Or lack thereof.

[Nika]

I have had quite a few fights spent in cruisers post-rework, less so pre-rework but I find myself fairly qualified, be it the groupfight or duel environment.

Not many know but I'm actually a pretty persistent MMO player and one thing that was my sweet spot for class gameplay is that healthy complexity in class mechanics (2100 hours in FFXIV and solid proficiency in healing classes are a proof as genuine as possible, but that's off subject.) What I wish to say that, with the 5.1 rework they've become that sweet spot that, with at least the basic understanding can be a terrifying weapon - in relatively capable hands. It really filtered out the chaff who were thrown into complacency by the rework with which cruisers have become flying HP pools with ridiculously high damage guns that allowed them to trade off with heavier ships at little cost to themselves.

Until the implementation of high-speed, high-refire high-dispersion primaries cruisers were a very sweet toy to bring to nearly any situation, and now that it's toned down - it still probably is a very solid answer, one I do not have too much gameplay time on as there seems to be a drop in activity in the areas I'm typically in, or I just don't have one in those areas action is happening.

My main concern is probably still quite a limited number of generic heavy options with obvious prevalence of two specific options - the Tachyon Lance and the Impact Cannon, but this is not a deterrent sufficient to really push a player away from cruiser gameplay. I am still of the opinion cruisers are, and can be an enjoyable class to play and, with some effort, can become one hell of a tool of removal of nigh (almost) any threat that lurks in the wilds of Sirius. Vidar is, personally, my favorite if we speak cruisers, with Agincourt not far behind.

Maybe they will need some fine tuning like it happened to reworked primary turrets but otherwise cruisers are in a very sweet spot right now.

[Harcourt Fenton Mudd]

I vote we call them hemroid blasters.

[Harcourt Fenton Mudd]

What's the point in all of the awesome POB built weapons for caps of you can't place them where you want ?

Why not just find a way to use FLhook to limit the max number of certain weapons like a BC main battery, and otherwise let people just set their ship up to suit their own preferences.

If balance requires everything be awkward to use, it's not balanced.

[Chenzo-]

What's the point in all of the awesome POB built weapons for caps of you can't place them where you want ?

Why not just find a way to use FLhook to limit the max number of certain weapons like a BC main battery, and otherwise let people just set their ship up to suit their own preferences.

If balance requires everything be awkward to use, it's not balanced.

The goal was not balance, it was to make capitals unplayable. They succeeded.

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