RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup

[Prysin]

Afaik, it's better to be this way, for everyone.
Otherwise we'll all might have to deal with "RP Consequences" that may come, for example, from teh Rheinland's side, what definitely won't help to keep things according to pre-written lore.

Liberty too, both Rheinland and Liberty has branded hessians as hardcore criminals and show no mercy in the disposal of them.

Bretonia simply cannot afford to make either Liberty nor Rheinland its foe at this point, as that would severely cripple their already close to vanquished military.

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[Zukeenee]

Oh boy. Time for opinions on things that don't concern me. Everybody's doing it! I wanna be a cool guy, too.

Nevermind the ooRPness of Hessians knowing what was happening and where; that kind of out-of-character information gets spread around privately all the time. It's not something that can really be regulated.

Hessians allying with a lawful group is clearly outlawed by their ID. Regardless of what anyone says here or what anyone desires for the way these things are handled, ID > Everything else. This has always been the case. ID rules override all else, regardless of stated server rules, restrictions, and even RP. I'm okay with this.

The problem is with the group. In-game groups are just tools used for communication (and formations, but that's not relevant here). That communication in pink text could have just as easily been taking place in a Skype call or on Teamspeak. In a smaller event, it could have even been happening in green text. Same results, but no obvious identifying factor of "They're clearly working together". I understand that while it was probably easiest for the Admins to find the offenders by looking at the groups, the sanction should not be based on that alone.

The deciding factor in the sanction should have been what came after the base was destroyed. Two groups teaming up to shoot a common enemy is a thing that happens all the time, and with good reason. But once the three-way turns into an engagement with just two opposing factions, something similar to what Bindo said should probably happen:

they probably all would have been fine if after that last Corsair popped, there was an awkward moment where everybody went "Ummmm, thanks? I guess" and then that one guy went "KRIEG FUR DAS VATERLAND!" and shoot all the Baffies and then baffies shoot back

And actually, the aftermath of the whole event has hardly been brought up here at all. What did happen after the base was destroyed? Did the Hessians hang around? Did the Bretonians say "Thanks, now leave"? Did anyone say anything at all about this alliance? Did anyone open fire? Because as I said, I believe this sanction should have been decided on how the Bretonians and the Hessians treated each other after the base went boom. Pointing at the group and saying "That's an alliance" seems to me like a lazy alternative to a proper investigation.



As for the actual "punishment"...

My assumption is that they were being clever--"drop them in nommie land muahaha, that will be punishment enough"--without considering that some of the corsair players would turn it into a grief buffet.

Yeah, this whole thing just strikes me as an Admin's personal joke taken to a higher level with the sheer number of players involved. I'm not getting the impression that an abundance of thought was put into the decision to beam everyone. But it doesn't much matter, anyway.

It wasn't like most other punishments, and it may not have been terribly "professional", but I don't think it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be. You can get out of Omicron Lost in one piece if you're careful, and know when to log in. You haven't lost anything, you're only at risk of losing something, depending on how crafty you can be in your escape. And even if you do lose something, all it comes down to is credits. And credits can be earned again.

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[Vito]

This whole thread is disgusting, but I have to say a few words.

Bretonians:
They played everything by the book, chasing the supply ships and constantly attacking the base. The only problem is I saw some of them asking why there aren't more Corsairs in Bretonia. No sair base equals less sairs in Bretonia, right? Maybe you should have thought about it before blowing it up, since you all claim that fighting the Corsairs is fun and everything.

Hessians:
In fact [RF], not hessians in general since many people can't tell them apart... They once again did what they do best: mindless pew pew with little regard for RP. The thing is I got used to that a long time ago and that's why I left the faction in the first place. By the ways, asking for their ID to be changed after it was already modified to expand their ZOI? Really?

Corsairs:
Reporting the lolteam was not necessary in my opinion and not me nor the Black Sails supported this action, so please stop pointing fingers at us. I doubt this sanction will change anything and it will only lead to more oorp hate and grudges and crap like that. Hunting the unequipped fleet in Delta was a lame move and lowering yourself to your enemies' level is never the right thing to do but at the same time nobody can blame them for wanting to show the other team how it feels to be on the receiving end, with no chance of winning.

Admins:
They made the right decision but I doubt the sanctioned players' attitude will change, given the comments that came after and the fact nobody admitted he/she did wrong.

To sum it up: just dealt with it. This is Disco and some things will never change.

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The Corsair Trade Company

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[Omicron]

not me nor the Black Sails supported this action, so please stop pointing fingers at us.

Ask one of your players with ship named Sails.Furia that was present in Omicron Delta during that time.

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[Vito]

Ask one of your players with ship named Sails.Furia that was present in Omicron Delta during that time.

Try reading before commenting. I was talking about the sanction, not what followed after

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The Corsair Trade Company

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[Omicron]

Hunting the unequipped fleet in Delta was a lame move and lowering yourself to your enemies' level is never the right thing

Aha.

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[Vito]

Yes the Rabia should not have been there and it would be dealt with internally. However:

at the same time nobody can blame them for wanting to show the other team how it feels to be on the receiving end, with no chance of winning.

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The Corsair Trade Company

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[Omicron]

I would agree if you actualy build a base inside your own space. Swarming hostile hive full of angry legates in your own home is valid treatment and your base was doomed to fail once discovered. Don't invest cash into something you use as disposable Forward Operation Base.

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[Ursus]

And actually, the aftermath of the whole event has hardly been brought up here at all. What did happen after the base was destroyed? Did the Hessians hang around? Did the Bretonians say "Thanks, now leave"? Did anyone say anything at all about this alliance? Did anyone open fire?

What I saw from the outside was that the Hessian fleet turned and left immediately after the base died. It seemed to be voluntary, like getting out while the getting is good. I was not in the group so I dont know what was said in group chat. It was a very fast departure.

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[fencore]

Yesterday I was in favor of leaving this thread open, as it was geared more toward discussion of the rules in the context of the sanction and not as much about the sanction itself.

Over the course of the past several hours, this has changed.

Those of you pointing fingers at the Corsairs for filing the report in a fit of bad taste, we had many reports filed, and not all from Corsair players. The evidence was compiled and the sanction made. It was intended to be more than just a forum text warning, and it sure as hell had the intended effect - it got everyone's attention. The armors were removed not to incite the risk of loss, but to force players to take time to fly back and to contemplate why they were shoved out there.

Those of you accusing us of forcing the bottleneck and opening you up to Corsairs, I have to admit, we didn't consider the Corsairs who participated in that farming would decide to sink that low. While I'm an advocate for patience and thought, and applaud those who chose to wait to move their ships back to avoid the Corsair nonsense, we're all incredibly disappointed with the aftermath of that, and as such, if you lost your armor upgrade to Corsairs, send me a message and I'll restore it. And, to get the story straight, the only equipment that was removed was armor. Detached and placed in the cargo hold. No guns or anything else were stripped, and no credits were removed from bank accounts.

Additionally, I'll be moving the snubs back to Cambridge who haven't managed to make it back to home base themselves. The mix-up there was on my shoulders, and I apologize for that. Give me the next six hours to sort through that, and if you haven't had your snub returned to home by then, send me a PM.

The meaning behind the sanction is not so strictly "GROUP BAD! NO GROUP!", it's more that you lot chose to sit there and collaborate. The Hessians and the Bretonians worked together to take this base, and the grouping itself was the clearest indication of this. The aftermath of the attack showed no indication to rectify this situation, from what I can tell.

I'm entertained seeing wailing about how you're not going to be able to group up with their friend who's flying another faction's ship on the other side of Sirius because of this. That's not considered allying itself. You're not collaborating in that case. It's not so black and white as that, and most of our sanction investigations don't treat the rules as being that black and white.

When it comes down to it, there are things that we as the administration could have handled better, but the actual method of applying the warning is not something that we regret. I hope the message got across, because this stands for your warning. We will not be so kind in the future, and that doesn't just apply to Hessians and Bretonians. Be aware of not only what your ID says, but also what your opponent's IDs say, and how that plays into interactions.