Yeah I do, I think had characters with more or less every transport in the mod, mostly flying solo or in very small groups. Thing is when I see no way out, I just pay the damn pirates/policefolk/vigilantes and get on with it.
Quote:The solo 5ker can be successfully pirated by nearly anything. It dies to anything that is bomber, Ptrans, GB, cruiser.
You are saying that as if it is a bad thing? All I am saying is that I would like the 5K'ers drawbacks to be either bigger, or every other transport buffed to promote more variety in both trading ships and tactics employed. You also seem to say here that a 5K'er is equally dead when faced with a bomber/gb as it is when facing a cruiser, which sort of defeats the purpose of this discussion.
Quote:Virtually unlimited amount of traders + reasonable amount of snubs (more than 2 you do not take on a convoy normally) will never be able to beat the odds. 50 seconds for each CAU 6 Battletransport to poof, CD ranges that can catch everything running, and guns/missiles that even destroy you at extreme ranges without cms and without enough agility to dodge. '
Well perhaps it just means a different balance then, that you bring a larger escort, also fielding bombers? IMG has a large player base and some very good pilots that I reckon enjoy firing novas at lone pirate cruisers.
Quote:I want to shoot at things, even in my transport when I am forced to. I have every right to enjoy that part of the game and I demand that my fun in playing this game is taken into account as well. And I am a trader player. I want the chance to kill a pirate (any class including GB) if he is dumb, and at least have a chance to get to safety in ANY situation (cruiser win condition, as blue message is out of the question).
I think that is where our opinions differ the most. For me, when I undock on a trading ship, I accept that I will be shot to pieces if someone jumps me and I can't talk my way out of it. That is the premise. So the game for me is to avoid detection, to have backups or escorts or to try and talk my way out of dangerous situations. At times you meet characters that cannot be reasoned with or overwhelming forces only really intent on killing you, and you have to see your ship get destoyed. But so be it. At least the other fella enjoyed himself, hopefully, and I know I will still be making a fortune by choosing a different route on my next attempt. I know this luxury isn't available to all trading factions, but still there is a bit of variety in the choices of RP commodities and routes for those factions.
I don't like this "I have a right to have fun", when you at the very same time can broadly define what fun is yourself. Don't you reckon that the noob pirate in the gunboat you scrapped have a "demand for fun" too? Should he go asking for a gunboat buff so he can have fun convincingly roleplaying that deadly pirate he always wanted to roleplay? Or a group of fresh players deciding to have fun building a lawful base in Bretonia only to see it get obliterated by BAF - how about those players' demand for fun, should that be accommodated for too?
The problem with an individual demand for fun (that you in addition define yourself) is that this is a community base multiplayer game, where there really isn't much room for an "I" if fairness is to be upheld for all players, new and old alike.
Quote:Best by logging off and waiting for him to log off. It's great fun <irony>.
So the entire |IMG logs off to avoid confrontation with one single pirate? Come on...
Quote:Escorts & scouts are not around. If you do not have people/friends/faction mates, you will almost be forced to go alone. Especially new players do not have the networks to rely on. And before you say: Join a faction... there are few that do what you want to see... it is IMG| and Bowex) that fly organised, high CAU, well protected runs.
Fair enough, and I do admire both Bowex) and IMG| for what you do. But would it be so bad if those factions adopted a new modus operandi where you never venture out alone? In-RP it would make sense not to send out 5K'ers unprotected. As for the new players, you are right it is difficult for them - but those new players would also be very dead against bombers/gunboats.
When you are over that initial hurdle, it is very easy to make money. Look at the Tau's for instance, there is a group of silent miners that have been working hard lately - I and I know several others have tried to talk to them for a good 4-5 days now to figure out what their group is about and what they want, but the only way they seem to communicate is with the pew-button and random oorp-insults when they die. Now they have a duo of battlecruisers and one battleship, and they engage left and right without notice, as well as re-engage when they have the chance. I think they are having fun doing what they are doing, and I am not one for sanctionlancer, but sometimes I can't help but think that if it was a little bit more difficult to make credits players would have to stick around for long enough to learn the rules before they get their capital ships. Trading is already pretty much ez-mode, and I was hoping we could bring back the thrill of it by tweaking a few things here and there and make it more difficult to trade or make sure it has consequences when you die in a system.
P.S. A CAU VI Shire is not worth a billion. You got robbed:D
' Wrote:The solo 5ker can be successfully pirated by nearly anything. It dies to anything that is bomber, Ptrans, GB, cruiser. A 5ker is meant to not last under fire for long and it does not. Not even high CAU Storks make it to the base if the enemy has half of an idea. Survival times are actually so low that I find it utterly unrealistic, not only against the cruisers but even against the common GB pirate scenario.
So 1 player on a pirate can wreck 1 player on a trader. Fine.
...
Now you guys yell: transports are not meant to fight!!!!
I say: It is a space shooter.
I want to shoot at things, even in my transport when I am forced to. I have every right to enjoy that part of the game and I demand that my fun in playing this game is taken into account as well. And I am a trader player. I want the chance to kill a pirate (any class including GB) if he is dumb, and at least have a chance to get to safety in ANY situation (cruiser win condition, as blue message is out of the question).
Doesn't have to be a 100 % chance of escaping even with perfect actions on the convoy part. Not even 50 %. But I want to have one. And making this happen is the principle of balancing, of fair play, of fun for every class of player.
...
GBs are still much too powerful against traders in solo piracy. And... let's not talk about cruisers.
...
So, yes, trader players ask for a fair chance in this -game- because they want to have fun. And dying 100 % even in a battle transport that is worth a billion credits in less than a minute (I tested it, CAU 6 Shire) just yells: balancing needs to be done.
' Wrote:You also seem to say here that a 5K'er is equally dead when faced with a bomber/gb as it is when facing a cruiser, which sort of defeats the purpose of this discussion.
...
I think that is where our opinions differ the most. For me, when I undock on a trading ship, I accept that I will be shot to pieces if someone jumps me and I can't talk my way out of it. That is the premise.
...
I don't like this "I have a right to have fun", when you at the very same time can broadly define what fun is yourself. Don't you reckon that the noob pirate in the gunboat you scrapped have a "demand for fun" too? Should he go asking for a gunboat buff so he can have fun convincingly roleplaying that deadly pirate he always wanted to roleplay? Or a group of fresh players deciding to have fun building a lawful base in Bretonia only to see it get obliterated by BAF - how about those players' demand for fun, should that be accommodated for too?
The problem with an individual demand for fun (that you in addition define yourself) is that this is a community base multiplayer game, where there really isn't much room for an "I" if fairness is to be upheld for all players, new and old alike.
So, what we're hearing you say, Jack, is that your transport was going to die anyway ... so why exactly are you complaining about cruisers? That's sort of like playing a cleric in D&D and then complaining that you can't use your sword, you can only use a mace.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
@Henderson, MÃmir: I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have survived pirates with my 5k transport multiple times, gunboats and bombers, in house space, on lanes within 20k from a dockable base.
But with a cruiser all you need to do is sit at a jump gate, and wait for someone to jump from the other side.
And I know what some people will say "hire scouts blablabla", and so I will reply "piracy shouldn't be a solo task neither and blablabla".
' Wrote:You also seem to say here that a 5K'er is equally dead when faced with a bomber/gb as it is when facing a cruiser, which sort of defeats the purpose of this discussion.
There is a difference. A big one.
Facing a bomber means: a fight, an uneven one, but it can still be called a fight. If done right, the transport can dodge, run, turret steer, zoom-shoot, evade... for - and that is the main part - a few minutes. He has a tiny bit of a chance to survive (= motivational factor) plus he has an interaction of some duration that is worth being called "interaction.
Cruiser - big transport "interaction"? Pay withing 20 seconds, or die within 10-50 seconds. That's not interaction. That's not fight. That's massacre and no fun.
See the difference that "not having a chance" still carries? In case 1 you are hopelessly outgunned, but you at least can try to stay in the fight, do something, participate for a small time.
In the cruiser scenario, you pay or die in seconds. Big difference, at least for me.
Quote:Well perhaps it just means a different balance then, that you bring a larger escort, also fielding bombers? IMG has a large player base and some very good pilots that I reckon enjoy firing novas at lone pirate cruisers.
I don't need advise how to avoid pirate interaction or how to scrap cruisers. That's not the point of the complaints. My complaint is that the big transports (5kers, 4kers, Battle transports, Hegemons) die much too fast, so that no meaningful interation is possible once the "pay" option has not been chosen.
Quote:I think that is where our opinions differ the most. For me, when I undock on a trading ship, I accept that I will be shot to pieces if someone jumps me and I can't talk my way out of it.
Again: I don't have a problem with flying a ship that is hopeless in an armed confrontation. But: I want to have a chance, even if only a minimal one, to get away when I have done everything the right way. And against a cruiser you do not have that chance (in any transport that is a real 'transport', in the sense of: > 3.5k cargo). And - in addition - you do not even get to participate in the fighting part as it is too short and too one-sided.
Quote:I don't like this "I have a right to have fun", when you at the very same time can broadly define what fun is yourself.
[...]
The problem with an individual demand for fun (that you in addition define yourself) is that this is a community base multiplayer game, where there really isn't much room for an "I" if fairness is to be upheld for all players, new and old alike.
I worded it provocatingly on purpose because many people seem to think that flying transports is a chore and that it doesn't have to be fun. They accept their transport grind means not having a chance in confrontation. As a player whose transport chars have families, relations, friends, names, stories, etc... I have fun in flying them. And that fun was struck badly by the introduction of "you are dead in seconds, whatever you do" cruisers. So, yes, I think even flying the weakest class should allow me to have fun. Fun means - and I think we can find a compromise here - to be able to participate in the game. 15 seconds before Hegemon goes boom after a /l1, /l2 interaction of 20 seconds is not what I regard as "participating".
Quote:So the entire |IMG logs off to avoid confrontation with one single pirate? Come on...
If I see the known Kusari unlawful gunboat group position themselves, ofc we log off the convoy, log on somewhere else and log back later. It's no use trying to outwit people if the odds mean your chances of doing it successfully are very slim and that the loss will hurt (adding 4h punishment + unbeatable class of enemy now did not help to encourage stupid bravery and the notion of "ah, come on. We beat the odds!").
Quote: As for the new players, you are right it is difficult for them - but those new players would also be very dead against bombers/gunboats.
That's not a valid statement. It would say: You die anyway to the "minor threats" so no need to adress the problem. When a bomber or GB attacks you, you have time to learn. You have time to try different things. In anti cruiser, you are dead before you could actually start to understand what is happening. No learning process involved except: "next time, pay". Great choice. 30 second pay-"rp" or 30 seconds die-"rp".
Quote:[...]I was hoping we could bring back the thrill of it by tweaking a few things here and there and make it more difficult to trade or make sure it has consequences when you die in a system.
No problem with that. But share the burden equally. Transports are the all time losers in the equation. You lose cargo/profit, time, 4h and in addition you are pretty much dead whenever caught.
If you say that beaten the odds that just became a lot worse is "thrill" for you, I simply have to disagree. The weakest class just got struck down badly, twice. That is not a "challenge that one tries to beat" but for me "frustration that needs to be avoided".
The best moments in flying transports when you manage to beat the odds by having done everything the right way. Guess what.... the chances to actually get this outcome became really, really bad since the version change.
> novas made bombers very powerful
> turret steering made GBs very powerful
> cruisers added another unbeatable class
> 4h punishment added another frustrating hurdle to group activity ("I cannot fly transport today, I was killed in T23")
What I want to say is: transports were weak enough. Their players were just put at an even bigger disadvantage by the recent changes.
Quote:P.S. A CAU VI Shire is not worth a billion. You got robbed:D
Just a typo.:)I normally know what my ships are worth.:D
' Wrote:@Henderson, MÃmir: I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have survived pirates with my 5k transport multiple times, gunboats and bombers, in house space, on lanes within 20k from a dockable base.
Sometimes one is lucky. But I guess you will not contest the view that the big 5k transports most often just don't make it.
Quote:But with a cruiser all you need to do is sit at a jump gate, and wait for someone to jump from the other side.
Indeed. Tried it out a few times, just to test the chances. There is no chance.
Quote: I will reply "piracy shouldn't be a solo task neither and blablabla".
' Wrote:There is a difference. A big one.
...
Cruiser - big transport "interaction"? Pay withing 20 seconds, or die within 10-50 seconds. That's not interaction. That's not fight. That's massacre and no fun.
Then don't get caught in the first place. Get an escort/scout to run down the lane ahead of you. Have him go through the JG ahead of you.
' Wrote:See the difference that "not having a chance" still carries? In case 1 you are hopelessly outgunned, but you at least can try to stay in the fight, do something, participate for a small time.
In the cruiser scenario, you pay or die in seconds. Big difference, at least for me.
So the rules changed a little. Do the Marine think - improvise, adapt, overcome. I mean, from the way you're complaining about cruisers, I bet you were a thrill if someone came at you with a gunboat - since you had no chance against those, either.
' Wrote:I don't need advise how to avoid pirate interaction or how to scrap cruisers. That's not the point of the complaints. My complaint is that the big transports (5kers, 4kers, Battle transports, Hegemons) die much too fast, so that no meaningful interation is possible once the "pay" option has not been chosen.
Again: I don't have a problem with flying a ship that is hopeless in an armed confrontation. But: I want to have a chance, even if only a minimal one, to get away when I have done everything the right way. And against a cruiser you do not have that chance (in any transport that is a real 'transport', in the sense of: > 3.5k cargo). And - in addition - you do not even get to participate in the fighting part as it is too short and too one-sided.
No, the point is that we're giving you advice and commentary, and you're ignoring it. You're going "Yalalalala" with your fingers stuck in your ears. As I and many others said a LONG time ago - you're flying a big, juicy target that almost certainly IS going to die if you have the encounter in the first place.
Seriously - you say you don't have an issue with a ship hopeless in an armed confrontation. But you want to have a chance if you do everything the right way.
I'll type slowly, so you understand.
The ... right ... way ... to ... survive ... is ... to ... not ... have ... the ... armed ... confrontation ... in ... the ... first ... place.
Because if you're going to tell him no, I'm not going to pay - and his demands are reasonable - you deserve to die, as quickly and painfully as possible. (Unreasonable demands - those are sanction bait.) If the situation is hopeless like you say - are you particularly suicidal? If not, WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING? Are you in a military craft, that has equal weaponry? Are you in a large convoy, with lots of ships so that your group has a chance to get through, even if one of you dies?
No, you're flying solo, in a transport (since you won't hire an escort/scout). If you want to haul cargo and have guns, get a battleship. Otherwise, YOU ARE A TARGET. For everyone. You are the bottom of the food chain. EVERYONE likes to eat you. Some of them you might be able to brush off. But when a big, bad shark comes up to eat you - you're GOING to die. Period. End of story. You don't have a chance - and guess what? That's how it's SUPPOSED to be.
Approach flying a transport from the perspective of carrying out a military mission behind enemy lines. Successful mission means that you deliver your supplies. Change the way YOU do things - you said you role-play as a pilot who has family, friends, and such - now ACT in game like your life matters and you want to get home to them after every run.
Space is dangerous. Deal with it.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
' Wrote:The ... right ... way ... to ... survive ... is ... to ... not ... have ... the ... armed ... confrontation ... in ... the ... first ... place.
There's one problem with this, Agmen. (well, there're way more, but this one is purely balance related)
Battletransports. They aren't serving their purpose anymore.
And there's no difference between cau8 and au1 on 5k'er, now.
Agmen, I'll not discuss with you. And I am not falling into your provocation trap. So... enjoy your day. I figured out your general message a long time ago.
So... you can keep pressing the "adapt" point as much as you want. I think that a trial period after a rule change requires people to give feedback. I'm doing exactly that.
If my opinion is not what you thinkke: Deal with it.:D
' Wrote:There's one problem with this, Agmen. (well, there're way more, but this one is purely balance related)
Battletransports. They aren't serving their purpose anymore.
And there's no difference between cau8 and au1 on 5k'er, now.
Actually, they do - they deal with gunboats, bombers, and small fry, just like they used to. We just proved (albeit poorly) this with APM last weekend.
Cruisers and battleships should blow small stuff up with ease.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
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