Corsairs that dock in New Berlin and friends

[McNeo]

I didn't say they should, I say they do, whether we like it or not. As I said, I agree with everyone's complaints.

Corsairs, get your arse out of Liberty unless you're escorting a smuggler. That is about the limit. No fleet actions, no looking for a fight. Just escorts...

I can't speak for other factions as I don't know the overall setup.

And yes, there is a constant battle for RP over PvP, and it seems that it hangs in the balance right now....:mellow:

[Laowai]

@ Laowai: You have a complete wrong imagination when it comes to fascists. They had a strict law as soon as they were ruling germany, for example. The SA before was a wilde horde and their attitudes and behaviors were not in interests of Hitler and fellows anymore. Thats why the SA was terminated in 1934. The head was killed, many arrested and many members taken to the SS. The SS were very disziplined, guess why? When they have shown misbehavior they were been imprisoned in their own concentration camp for a certain time.
Later the members of the fighting detatchments of SS, the "Waffen SS", were becoming famous for being the most disciplined and toughest opponents and were becoming infamous for being fanatics.
The bad thing was the misusing of the best characters these young man were coming up with.


Respectful
AoM

Ok, you're right in your historical example of the discipline and "laws" concerning those fascist organisations, but you have missed the point. Fascist states do not rule by what is known as "Rule of Law" ie, an independent judiciary where everyone, including the government (and thus the police) are accountable to, and governed by, existing laws.
In a fascist state, people are controlled by rules, but these is not usually universally applicable. In the case of the Nazis in Germany Hitler was the law, and thus not prosecutable under it, and for the most part, senior party members, their families (and anyone else they chose to bestow favors on) was also immune from the law.

This is true of all fascist states to various extremes, Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Tito in Yugoslavia etc etc.... (Tito was nominally communist but the lack of "rule of law" there makes it much of the same)

You cited the example of the SA being a "wild horde", but remember that prior to 1933 that wild horde was used time and time again by Hitler to get what he wanted. It was only after he had gained power that he reigned them in, and he did this, again, by personal decree, not by any court or standing law - he just simply made the law up as he went along.

So what i was saying in regards to the game, if Rheinland operates this way - they have no law as such, they just have rules, that their chancellor, can make as he goes along, and his police, (who are a great faction btw, its always fun to try and get in and out of Rheinland) - will obey. They would not have to worry about shooting civilians, regardless of their alignment, if the chancellor had told them to do it because they would never ever be prosecuted.

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[bluntpencil2001]

Ok, you're right in your historical example of the discipline and "laws" concerning those fascist organisations, but you have missed the point. Fascist states do not rule by what is known as "Rule of Law" ie, an independent judiciary where everyone, including the government (and thus the police) are accountable to, and governed by, existing laws.
In a fascist state, people are controlled by rules, but these is not usually universally applicable. In the case of the Nazis in Germany Hitler was the law, and thus not prosecutable under it, and for the most part, senior party members, their families (and anyone else they chose to bestow favors on) was also immune from the law.

This is true of all fascist states to various extremes, Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Tito in Yugoslavia etc etc.... (Tito was nominally communist but the lack of "rule of law" there makes it much of the same)

You cited the example of the SA being a "wild horde", but remember that prior to 1933 that wild horde was used time and time again by Hitler to get what he wanted. It was only after he had gained power that he reigned them in, and he did this, again, by personal decree, not by any court or standing law - he just simply made the law up as he went along.

So what i was saying in regards to the game, if Rheinland operates this way - they have no law as such, they just have rules, that their chancellor, can make as he goes along, and his police, (who are a great faction btw, its always fun to try and get in and out of Rheinland) - will obey. They would not have to worry about shooting civilians, regardless of their alignment, if the chancellor had told them to do it because they would never ever be prosecuted.

You're getting into semantics here, really.

I believe that you are arguing the same point as Angel of Mercy, really.

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[Praetyre]

Rheinland is a fascist (minus any apparent form of genetic discrimination) democratic state without a standard of presumption of innocence, up to and including in prosecutions of Rheinwehr personnel. It appears to legislate through a 2 chamber Reichstag, yet it's Kanzler is worshipped via it's state religion, which may suggest some aspects of Rheinland society are in a sort of civil war with each other.

Regardless of it's process of legislature, Rheinland justice is administered by senior Kriegsmarine command, and is generally swift, immediate and permanent. It is also biased according to faction. Generally, corporations from Rheinland are given more chances then quasilegal groups like the Junkers or Zoners.

I would imagine that civil cases would likely be handled by more formal courts, but Kriegsmarine tribunals seem to handle most criminal cases when they occur in space. Presumably, the Heer would handle land criminal cases, or the Polize.

Also, I found the typo referencing the Sturmabteilung rather amusing, considering some might confuse it with the Southern Alliance, and that some may also assume (Wilde) that Nomadic infestation occured in the Third Reich.

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[Xing]

huh? Corsairs docking in lawful base? There's no rule to BAN these kind of practice? This in my eye would be a HUGE violation of RP codes...

Otherwise, completely agree with Gronath. Civilian shouldn't fly pirate ships.
In fact, we are RP server, I think civilian should only be restricted to civilian ships. I mean, yes military surplus, but at the exception of the russians, do you really see let's say, the US selling out their F-22 to the first coming rich fly boy in the states? Not so sure...
They probably only sell antics out as collection vehicles - but, antics are out of service vehicles.
House ships are serviced crafts. They are not antics for sure.

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[Praetyre]

I agree. If I see a military ship not properly tagged and IDed, especially a capital one, flying around as any of my House characters, I will extensively question it, for two reasons;
A. If it is part of my characters military, he'd be EXTREMELY curious to know just how someone managed to acquire extremely heavily guarded hardware.
B. If it isn't, he'd like to know if there is either a foreign agent in it or a grand theft auto

I don't buy (no pun intended) the idea the military sells their hardware like a yard sale. I could maybe believe them selling off old, decommisioned and stripped out fighters to a select few groups, but capital ships? You'd have to be stupid to sell your top of the line ships to Joe Schmoe.

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[RParade]

Nice post, Gronath.

I get this stuff alot too as my LSF character.

Yesterday;

I encounter a Titan in New York. Corsair tag'd and ID'd. Naturally, I pursue him. I engage him with little roleplay, 'cause I've learned quickly that roleplay doesn't work with this lot.

1 hour later

.. I'm still chasing the guy through Texas. I keep catching him with CD's, and he only has about two hits left on his hull. I've given him numerous opportunities to escape Liberty alive, even going so far as to telling him I'll disengage and offer him a full escort to the nearest border system, but like most of his comrades, I get childish remarks like "Corsairs are allowed to dock at Manhattan" and "Corsairs are everywhere, especially in Texas", "I'm never leaving Liberty" (even though my life support is surely failing by now thanks to the prolonged arsekicking you've given me for the last hour), and here's the best one, "You're a cheater because you downed my Titan with a Liberator LF."

*Shrug*

Alot of these people don't know, or care what they're playing, really. They know that Corsairs are pirates, so they think it gives them free reign to do whatever. It'd be nice if admins would start deleting these characters, just to let them know that they can't do whatever they want.

[Laowai]

Rheinland is a fascist (minus any apparent form of genetic discrimination) democratic state without a standard of presumption of innocence, up to and including in prosecutions of Rheinwehr personnel. It appears to legislate through a 2 chamber Reichstag, yet it's Kanzler is worshipped via it's state religion, which may suggest some aspects of Rheinland society are in a sort of civil war with each other.

Regardless of it's process of legislature, Rheinland justice is administered by senior Kriegsmarine command, and is generally swift, immediate and permanent. It is also biased according to faction. Generally, corporations from Rheinland are given more chances then quasilegal groups like the Junkers or Zoners.

I would imagine that civil cases would likely be handled by more formal courts, but Kriegsmarine tribunals seem to handle most criminal cases when they occur in space. Presumably, the Heer would handle land criminal cases, or the Polize.

Also, I found the typo referencing the Sturmabteilung rather amusing, considering some might confuse it with the Southern Alliance, and that some may also assume (Wilde) that Nomadic infestation occured in the Third Reich.

Nice post, Gronath.

I get this stuff alot too as my LSF character.

Yesterday;

I encounter a Titan in New York. Corsair tag'd and ID'd. Naturally, I pursue him. I engage him with little roleplay, 'cause I've learned quickly that roleplay doesn't work with this lot.

1 hour later

.. I'm still chasing the guy through Texas. I keep catching him with CD's, and he only has about two hits left on his hull. I've given him numerous opportunities to escape Liberty alive, even going so far as to telling him I'll disengage and offer him a full escort to the nearest border system, but like most of his comrades, I get childish remarks like "Corsairs are allowed to dock at Manhattan" and "Corsairs are everywhere, especially in Texas", "I'm never leaving Liberty" (even though my life support is surely failing by now thanks to the prolonged arsekicking you've given me for the last hour), and here's the best one, "You're a cheater because you downed my Titan with a Liberator LF."

*Shrug*

Alot of these people don't know, or care what they're playing, really. They know that Corsairs are pirates, so they think it gives them free reign to do whatever. It'd be nice if admins would start deleting these characters, just to let them know that they can't do whatever they want.

Ok... i dunno who that Corsair was... but yes, that "RP" (using the term loosely) was completely lame, and their comments doubly so (Corsairs are allowed to dock at Manhattan? ok.. look, see previous posts, i think unlawfuls can dock if there are no cops around, call it sneakin' in, but to SAY IT to a cop?.. Duh?? if the cop says you cant dock, you CANT dock...)

again, personally i think Corsairs have business in liberty, and at the moment, the can of worms has been well and truly opened people, and Corsairs are getting almost daily incursions into their space from LP, and LSF players... so be it, The corsairs will mix it up with you, chase you out, fight, whatever, i don't mind... it all makes for good and more varied RP (fingers crossed that people actually RP it, i'd prefer a good RP stoush over a PVP anyday)


@bluntpencil2001 - yes, i was arguing the semantics... but in response to a previous post that was also arguing semantics and missing the point:), im done arguing those semantics now, unless someone throws more semantics at me...;)


@Praetyre : Fascist democratic?????????????

@Xing... ok, im avoiding semantics again about the fact that US companies do supply weapons to almost anyone, an individual can buy an SU27 Flanker from Russia, (probably can't arm it..)which is a current tech front line fighter, and that arms makers worldwide have a yearly arms expo where weapons systems are sold off to governments, law enforcement agencies and... "other interested parties" - money talks.

Civilians should be given a bit of leeway... pirates.. probably not, Outcasts aren't gonna be in a Titan, rogues aren't gonna rock up and buy a liberty gunship... but i think civilians it ain't so bad...

what the civilian then does with said ship... is up to him;)

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[bluntpencil2001]

Yes, you can be both fascist and democratic.

Hitler was elected.

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[RParade]

and Corsairs are getting almost daily incursions into their space from LP, and LSF players...

.. I personally only know of one raid where LSF went into Omicron Minor/Gamma. As far as I know, LSF isn't taking any real action against the Corsairs, and neither is the LPI (which I guess is who you mean when you say LP).

You may see a scout from time to time, but as far as plundering is concerned.. I don't see it happening in Gamma. I would personally think that Liberty would rather keep the Corsairs at war with their current enemies rather than get it's hands dirty directly. The Corsairs have trouble getting things like food on their home planet while fighting wars on all fronts, do you honestly think they'd really want another enemy like Liberty to deal with at their doorsteps? Maybe one day they might want to pursue Liberty, but I can't see them seriously pursuing another House when they can't even supply their homeworld with food.

.. I also find the alliance between the Order and Corsairs to be a silly one. The Order is very structured and organized, whereas the Corsair Empire will work from a basis of "might equals right." By design these two factions are incompatible, especially seeing as to how the Order are pro-life activists, whereas the Corsairs are essentially ruthless thugs who kill everything they come into contact with.