Discovery Mod: Balance Issues

[TLI-Inferno]

IMG gets 3x bonus on most mining, while houses get 4x bonus on the ores within their houses. The balance is perfectly fine.

As a person who has a dozen mining ships all over the place, I feel that all corporate mining ID bonuses are pretty well-balanced. Additionally, the profit from various fields are pretty well-balanced. Sure, silver from Humboldt is a great route. As a result, the field is always depleted. Sure, the Dublin gold fields aren't such a good route. But there are 6 fields, 3 of which have good bonuses, so when other fields are down, you can always trust Dublin to be fresh.

As for Miner ID, they need to have their bonuses raised to 2x. Seriously, because there's no point in making a mining ship for a 1.5x bonus, a person would be better off just using a big transport with a 1x rate and work for themselves, they'd hardly notice the difference.

Same goes for Molly ID. I believe their gold rate should be 2.5x. It's just way too low right now for them to even mine. Mollies are miners, they should be able to mine inRP, as well as just to give a bit of a job for molly pirate transports which might smuggle gold on their off-time. It won't be overpowered, you've already got BMM mining gold at 4x and IMG mining at 3x.

[Pavel]

IMG gets 3x bonus on most mining, while houses get 4x bonus on the ores within their houses.

// They don't

The balance is perfectly fine.

No it isn't.

In a nutshell IMG has almost zoner diplomacy, powerful unlawful friends who usually pop house miners without demand, has same bonuses as house corps, is the only faction with A-B-A ore route in the game, can use cruisers and battleships.


Details are here.


Many of these issues are getting fixed in next version, including removal of 2 bonuses which IMG shouldn't have at all. I hope mining development will listen to points about mining bonuses and give house miners x4 bonus to ores such as cobalt or copper.

Thanks to raising questions issues hopefully will be solved, we'll see what future brings. DHC HC though, taught by the experience what miracles happened to mining balance in .86 will be watching closely further development of the mining system.

[SummerMcLovin]

Many of these issues are getting fixed in next version, including removal of 2 bonuses which IMG shouldn't have at all. I hope mining development will listen to points about mining bonuses and give house miners x4 bonus to ores such as cobalt or copper.

Like I have said previously, corps get 4x bonuses on their speciality ores, and for house corps this is within the houses.
However, you'll also notice that Kruger has 4x bonus to Cobalt and Silver out in the Omegas - no-one specialises in Copper out there and IMG has as much presence as the individual Rheinland companies.
And then the usual "We're losing a fair amount in the next update" things I've stated repeatedly. The Hessian combat target line shouldn't be there, but the IMG has plenty of 'special friends' around their routes and of course the Outcasts openly warring with us.

You also shout about how hard it is to be a house miner, but DHC has 25 days activity. That's great to see, but IMG's activity being about the same is no 'lesser' because we are in the Taus or Omegas.

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Kingdom of Bretonia
Colonial Republic
Independent Miners Guild
Ex-Admin

[belarusich]

As i understand i should post there about balance, so...I will say about cargo space:

Valor and Redemption have 1500 cargo, this is very low if compare with their sizes. Even lib dread has 1600.

[Trail]

As i understand i should post there about balance, so...I will say about cargo space:

Valor and Redemption have 1500 cargo, this is very low if compare with their sizes. Even lib dread has 1600.

one could argue that since they are both heavy battleships with a lot of guns, armor and even a special weapon on it that it uses more cargo space.

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[Knjaz]

As i understand i should post there about balance, so...I will say about cargo space:

Valor and Redemption have 1500 cargo, this is very low if compare with their sizes. Even lib dread has 1600.

one could argue that since they are both heavy battleships with a lot of guns, armor and even a special weapon on it that it uses more cargo space.

And, ofcourse, that is the reason why they can't use JumpDrives Mk3 (Solo ones) at all, and are rather limited when using other equipment?

1500 cargo space is the level of Sarissa and Mako. Togo and Osiris have 1400.

Valor and Redemption should have 1700 or 1800 cargo space, by mod logic. Check wiki.. http://discoverygc.com/wiki/Capital_Ships

All battleships with less than 1600 cargo space can't use JumpDrive Mk3, without unmounting shields or guns. With 1400 cargo space, even unmounting shield may not save you (Osiris, Togo).

All battleships with 1600 cargo space have to use AU8 to use a jump drive Mk3.

[belarusich]

Valor has many guns? 20. Zoner juggernaut has 24, lib carrier 27... Also redemption has less armor and no FG

[Syrus]

IMG has in no way Zonerlike reps. They still have pirates to worry about and the Outcasts attack rather regularly in Tau-23. If the Unioners were Corsair-minions finally, they could end up as a pirate against IMG as well.

While I do agree that other mining factions have it significantly harder around southern Sirius - Mollys and Hessians being friendly or neutral to IMG mostly - I must point out, that IMG| as a faction gets hunted by people about as much, if you exclude the hate-fueled stuff that happened or is still happening around Rheinland factions. I will honestly be VERY happy, when DHC and Krüger finally get better chances to do the mining they should be able to do, without getting immediatly slaughtered because the enemy can pop up just right next to them through a jumphole (DHC mostly, guess Krüger rep just got ruined by certain people. Also I'd like to mention that Krüger is at another disadvantage, which is not IMG's fault: GMG in Sigma-13 and no way around them). BMM needs better chances for fleeing from the field in Cambridge, at the moment though they at least got a decent field in Leeds. Don't know about many other fields besides Tau-23, Dublin, Cambridge and Omega-7, but I'm pretty sure Rheinland also has one in each Köln and München...and there are fields in Omega-15, with a Junker base "right next to it".

But heh, let's see what we got, and hope I don't miss anything...
Only the ores interesting for IMG, BMM, DHC and Krüger:
(Al) Aluminium - DHC, Krüger
(Be) Beryllium - IMG, BMM
(Co) Cobalt - IMG, DHC, Krüger
(Cu) Copper - IMG, DHC, Krüger
(D) Diamonds - DHC, Krüger
(Au) Gold - IMG, BMM
(Nb) Niobium - IMG, BMM
(Ag) Silver - IMG, Krüger
(All other ores should not have boni for IMG imo.)

So, I'll just ... off my head ... try to make some suggestions, field changes would have to be made to give the faction the ore they get a bonus for, they also require sellpoints for these ores then:

Code:

Bonus  | Al  | Be  | Co  | Cu  | (D) | Au  | Nb  | Ag  | ALL
   IMG |     | 2.5 | 3.0 |     |     | 2.5 | 4.0 | 3.0 | 15.0
   BMM |     | 3.5 | ??? | ??? |     | 4.0 | 3.5 |     | 11.0
   DHC | 3.0 |     | 3.5 | 3.0 | 4.0 |     |     | 2.5 | 16.0
Krüger | 3.0 |     | 3.0 | 3.5 | 2.5 |     |     | 4.0 | 16.0

- Overall: rates could be adjusted a bit, overall it's still how I'd set it. Sellpoints need to be available as well though.
- Obviously BMM needs one more ore. I'd suggest Copper or Cobalt ore, since they sell decently far away. Cobalt ore is available in Omega-3 as well, and as far as I know BMM gets a bonus on it already. Giving them both and then switching the boni around a bit could work as well, but they need fields for them. Newcastle maybe? Manchester? Copper would be better imo, since IMG already mines Cobalt, but it really depends on how you want to see it. Just saying that it shouldn't be another IMG-accessable field.
- Cobalt & Copper for DHC and Krüger: one gets a bit more of this, the other more of that. Question is, who wants what? Also, where to put their fields. Omega-7 and ... ?
- Both DHC and Krüger have fields for Aluminium. Both should get the same bonus. Both should keep fields in .87.
- Diamonds, obviously DHC's big money. But also accessed by Krüger to some degree. Fields? I hope Omega-11 becomes more than just a slaughterhouse for miners and some field a bit off the side for Krüger gets in after Omega-15 vanishes. Maybe in München after that "unexplainable" desaster strikes?
- Gold and Niobium should be pretty much set. One is BMM's big stuff, the other IMG's.
- Silver, now, I think this should be Krüger's big money.
- Overall some fields will change in .87, Omega-15 gone for example. I hope the Rheinland mining factions get new fields for the lost ones. This time with a bit better survival odds, not with a Junker base right next door.
- Also hope for BMM to get a bit more and better survival odds. Gold, being only available in Dublin pretty much, is quite dangerous to mine. Maybe the price should be adjusted accordingly?

There are many factors involved overall though...the big questions regarding who gets what is also "where are the fields" and "where are the sellpoints". A big focus has to lie on giving each mining factions good alternatives, and, most importantly, not overly dangerous fields to mine in. A tagged DHC mining in Omega-7, right next to a jumphole, or in Omega-11, ways away from the next safe-place and next to the guard system of their biggest enemy, is just suicidal.
If the situation between GMG and Krüger wasn't that "hardcoded", there'd also be the possbility of Krüger mining H3 in Sigma-13. But that's another topic.

EDIT: Btw, I think it makes more sense for Krüger to mine Copper, while DHC rather mines Cobalt, because Cobalt has more people mining it AND it is available in Omega-3 to them, while Copper is available to fewer people.

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[AeternusDoleo]

(Raw) Hydrocarbons come in as an ore. Daumann and BMM both get that. Would advise you to refrain from suggesting stats until you know the baseline. When that's decided we'll let you know.

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Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Pavel]

Thank you for comparison Syrus, although I'm lost now, as various people tell me different numbers when it comes to bonuses. It doesn't matter that much though.

I wanted to say method of comparing mining factions by using summarized value of their mining bonuses is wrong way of doing so, as for example argument "Daumann has two higher bonus to diamonds than hessians" is flawed by fact in gameplay it means difference between 30 seconds or one minute of mining, so it has no impact on gameplay at all, but hessians have own ships, tougher than CTE stuff usually used by house corporations and can attack lawful miners with capital ships. Same goes for IMG vs. house miners issue.

@ Aet

It's good to hear Hydrocarbons finally become ore.

If Kruger gets bonus to aluminium, it'll only hurt both Kruger and DHC, as it'll split already small playerbase even more. What I suggest for Kruger is giving it its own unique ore in Koeln, which only Kruger can mine. That way it benefits that faction and doesn't split playerbase between Kruger and DHC.

Similar problem is with Omega-7, all factions can mine every ore there (except DHC which hasn't bonus to silver and field with it, although it should, according to the rumors, but nevermind), what in result causes people play as IMG only because it has exactly/almost same bonuses to Copper/Cobalt/Silver as Daumann and Kruger, but has way better diplomacy and the toughest Rheinland pirate group, hessians, don't harass Guild. Things would stay as they are in Omega-7 or it either would go "IMG mines ore A only, DHC mines ore B only and Kruger mines ore C only" way, so every faction could have something "own". Such solution solves problem with factions' diplomacy being under or overpowered - even if IMG diplomacy is overpowered, people need to play as DHC or Kruger to mine ores B and C.


However it all is to be discussed later, as the most important thing now will be getting .87 released and fixing bugs.