Capital Ships and the Future of Discovery RP 24/7

[Thyrzul]

and would never do anything bad.

You can never know.

you only create a very unhealthy "us" vs. "them" attitude.

Goes both ways. The examples of factions and events (LNS, RNC, ZA and O74...) he brought up are the reason I have the same opinion about the matter.

most trouble, trolling and general dismay was caused - and still is caused by official factions - or established unofficial ones. - some have alt chars that are untagged to do their factions dirty work. - which is not only a cowardly move but also rather despicable.

I disagree with the term "most".

players suffer from "selected perception" though. you really just see what you expect to see - and you fail to see whats right in front of you, if it does not match your expectations.

Just because there is something in front of me doesn't mean I can't see or ignore it, but then don't expect me to agree with it if it doesn't match my expectations.

what i read in the past days:

- SRP caps
- SRP PoBs

whats next?

some smallish faction trying to SRP transports over 3000, cause they cannot fly them anyway - and at least they can get back at those nasty big corporations that totally abuse the big ships and make way more money?

PoBs lack regulation and can not be properly balanced either way to give both parties equal chances of victory in a player vs base, or rather group vs base combat.

Many faction caps tend to be over- or misused. Example would be Zoners and their caps, a generally peaceful faction aiming for most neutrality with capital vessels with roles of exploration vessel, science vessel, mobile freeport and secondary role of self defense, but balanced in a way making them effectively potential warships capable to initiate wars. This is what tends to confuse many players into believing they can do whatever they want as their neutrality is ensured, and the moment somebody attacks that neutrality, they have every right to defend themselves for being the victims, and eventually wage wars with their surroundings (tl;dr: the well known recurring issue of zonerzonerzoner). You should know this well, as far as I know you are an experienced player when it comes to zoners.

Another example would be the misrepresentation of forces. I've seen lately 2-3 Redemptions in Leeds defending the system from Royal Navy caps of just slightly greater amount (approx 4-5 Valors and a cruiser). By lore we approximately got 3-5 Redemptions to defend Roussillon, and by no means would the Council risk losing 3 of those on the Bretonian Frontier when the GRN possesses at least 50x times this amount.

Currently I see no issue with transport ships, if you know of any, please tell.

also - if you travel the omicrons or edgeworlds - it would be highly ooRP to see ppl flying around the systems in fighters. - it is in fact inRP to see ppl to fly around in at least destroyer sized vessels, cause ...

remember : traversing a system takes weeks if not months inRP - and you really don t wanne sleep where you fly, where you eat, where you crap.

Sure, but in what amount? Like the amount ZA spams their Nephs? From where would inRP zoners have the resources and manpower to maintain such a large fleet they intend to represent?

Daaaamn, many posts...

EDIT:

don't forget bombers pilots will also no longer need that ship,if bombers disappear as well then why have fighters?..we all will be flying in transports and fight each other in them and even pirate or be a police officers..because what will be the point of having other ship?

Bombers can shoot transports. Fighters can shoot bombers and fighters. I don't see any of those losing all of their targets/purpose.

yup..it is very hard to achieve balance..

Anyway..

I don't think the problem is the ability to buy one if you want and shouldn't be restricted in any form ,but rather where to use
You have given a very good example of how not to use,aka LNS :
But the real problem is where and when to use it
As a navy officer you should not use a capital ship inside the house space[only at border worlds/systems or on the enemy house space] and you should not hunt in any form unlawful in your house space,that should only be dealt by police[right now it's pointless to fly a police id-ed ships because you get a better deal without it,aka no ships class limitation,twice the zone of influence(2 houses) then a police id]
So..as a navy pilot you should only look for foreign enemy threat in your own house or in the enemie house

That is also a good example of misuse.

Totally agree with Jinx..indies are not the problem..but the official or unofficial are..

I still don't agree with this, and I would be glad if any of you could back up this claim with reason.

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[Pinko]

Noooo.

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I want to get off Mr. Igiss' wild ride.

[Crossroads]

We could actually try to SRP caps for real, maybe just try it for a month or so, and see if it's will actualy kill the server.

Of course some people will leave, but I doubt the server will die completely. Think of it, not every indies fly caps. Not every indie caps will simply leave because you SRP caps.

[Hannibal]

don't forget bombers pilots will also no longer need that ship,if bombers disappear as well then why have fighters?..we all will be flying in transports and fight each other in them and even pirate or be a police officers..because what will be the point of having other ship?

Bombers can shoot transports. Fighters can shoot bombers and fighters. I don't see any of those losing all of their targets/purpose.

My post was not about what they could do,aka shoot transports,but more about why would they?
Let me compare a few things Bombers vs Transports:
Pro[bombers]:
they can kill them fast
Problems[bombers]:
They would have to worry about fighters
Pro[transport with pirate id]:
no enemies,fighters cant kill them,no capitals anymore..
And 2 transports vs one,it's always a win
Problems[transport with pirate id]:
It will take more time to kill a transport,but you won't fail there since you have more guns,more power/core then a normal transport who wants space to trade and make money

yup..it is very hard to achieve balance..

Anyway..

I don't think the problem is the ability to buy one if you want and shouldn't be restricted in any form ,but rather where to use
You have given a very good example of how not to use,aka LNS :
But the real problem is where and when to use it
As a navy officer you should not use a capital ship inside the house space[only at border worlds/systems or on the enemy house space] and you should not hunt in any form unlawful in your house space,that should only be dealt by police[right now it's pointless to fly a police id-ed ships because you get a better deal without it,aka no ships class limitation,twice the zone of influence(2 houses) then a police id]
So..as a navy pilot you should only look for foreign enemy threat in your own house or in the enemie house

That is also a good example of misuse.

Someone's forgot about what navy actually is..let me give you a quote to refresh your memory:

The strategic offensive role of a navy is projection of force into areas beyond a country's shores

Let not even count that in real world there are laws that forbid them from using them inside their own territory..
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players suffer from "selected perception" though. you really just see what you expect to see - and you fail to see whats right in front of you, if it does not match your expectations.

Just because there is something in front of me doesn't mean I can't see or ignore it, but then don't expect me to agree with it if it doesn't match my expectations.

I dont know..but from your own signature and comments[now and past]it seems to dismiss your comment somehow..[i'll let you guess how ]

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People want to believe that God has a plan for them.
They don't wanna believe that anyone else does..

[Thyrzul]

My post was not about what they could do,aka shoot transports,but more about why would they?
Let me compare a few things Bombers vs Transports:
Pro[bombers]:
they can kill them fast
Problems[bombers]:
They would have to worry about fighters
Pro[transport with pirate id]:
no enemies,fighters cant kill them,no capitals anymore..
And 2 transports vs one,it's always a win
Problems[transport with pirate id]:
It will take more time to kill a transport,but you won't fail there since you have more guns,more power/core then a normal transport who wants space to trade and make money

You implied in that post of yours that bombers and fighters would disappear if caps disappear. I just wanted to counter that argument of yours. And you forgot that Pirate ID'd transports should fear bombers, similarly to bombers should fear fighters.

I dont know..but from your own signature and comments[now and past]it seems to dismiss your comment somehow..[i'll let you guess how ]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I just wanted to point out that to me Jinx seems to mix "selective perception" with disagreement.

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[Skorak]

The Freelancer Navy doesnt really work like a RL Military... Otherwise there wouldn't be any battleships stationed in the core systems. In case you didn't know: The Missouri is a vanilla ship.
Also bombers won't vanish. Ever. Exception: You nerf them.

[Hannibal]

My post was not about what they could do,aka shoot transports,but more about why would they?
Let me compare a few things Bombers vs Transports:
Pro[bombers]:
they can kill them fast
Problems[bombers]:
They would have to worry about fighters
Pro[transport with pirate id]:
no enemies,fighters cant kill them,no capitals anymore..
And 2 transports vs one,it's always a win
Problems[transport with pirate id]:
It will take more time to kill a transport,but you won't fail there since you have more guns,more power/core then a normal transport who wants space to trade and make money

You implied in that post of yours that bombers and fighters would disappear if caps disappear. I just wanted to counter that argument of yours. And you forgot that Pirate ID'd transports should fear bombers, similarly to bombers should fear fighters.

In a fair fight beetween a bomber and a transport with solaris and cau,a bomber wont have a chance,if more unit of both type of ships then the winner will either be determined by skills and/or numbers,so therefor the necesity of flying a bomber will no longer be requiered or desired

I dont know..but from your own signature and comments[now and past]it seems to dismiss your comment somehow..[i'll let you guess how ]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I just wanted to point out that to me Jinx seems to mix "selective perception" with disagreement.

Selective perception may refer to any number of cognitive biases in psychology related to the way expectations affect perception. Human judgment and decision making is distorted by an array of cognitive, perceptual and motivational biases, and people tend not to recognise their own bias, though they tend to easily recognise (and even overestimate) the operation of bias in human judgment by others.
[you always comment every damn post in every thread]
.. they pick and choose according to their own needs.
[Does that sounds familiar?]

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People want to believe that God has a plan for them.
They don't wanna believe that anyone else does..

[rainth345]

I think the problem here isn't the caps... but the people flying the caps...

THIS logic is one of the main reasons why RP in server name matters as little as it does now.
Let me take this logic a little further.

Imagine "RP before shooting" rule was removed (or is it being now? Xeno much?)
"I think problem is not rules... but the people who shoot everuthing they see"
Or hypothetical EVE style.
"I think problem wasnt CONCORD removal from high-sec, but all those people who decided to gank every new player."
Or hypothetical Real Life if you like
"I think problem is not that underages can carry deadly firearms..."
THIS is what such logic leads to.

Or perhaps you meant that ADMINS should punish lolwuts? Sorry to dissapoint you, but this isnt happening in any near future.

Is not about Admins punishing the lolwuts... atleast in my opinion...

The problem I see is that there is sometimes a lack of communication between indies and official factions...

The indies I'm talking about are the LNS (not including SFC, they're a competent group)

Especially on the part where some indies don't even speak English or partly understands English...

On RNC, I don't think they have a problem with communication just because seeing their combat strategy ingame means that they have organization/teamwork and such... but their PROBLEM is that they don't know when their actions become a thorn on the side. Ergo, they don't even know their endless raiding NY or Texas become a nuisance rather than fun gameplay.

On LNS, we have a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR problem with organization.... I have been on countless raids/defense situations with them and I must say... the organization level among us needs an immediate improvement. People need to know that there needs to be teamwork and communication, two-way mind you, in order to eliminate stress and all the assorted mind-boggling problems. I have experienced some LN indies that get frustrated over trying to organize a fleet.... the mere time it takes to organize a LN fleet takes the **** out of you. It gets on everyone's nerves and more importantly it drains the will to play the game out of you.

Anyways, those are my opinions.... they may not be about capital ships but as I've said... there isn't a problem about capital ships... its the PEOPLE... the PEOPLE who USE THEM.

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[Thyrzul]

In a fair fight beetween a bomber and a transport with solaris and cau,a bomber wont have a chance,if more unit of both type of ships then the winner will either be determined by skills and/or numbers,so therefor the necesity of flying a bomber will no longer be requiered or desired

Due to the advantage of bombers over transports in agility, size and speed, their effectiveness raise faster with more numbers. Bomber vs transport combat can only favor the bombers if they are more in numbers, which situation they can easily simulate at greater but even numbers too by simply dealing with each transport one by one.

Selective perception may refer to any number of cognitive biases in psychology related to the way expectations affect perception. Human judgment and decision making is distorted by an array of cognitive, perceptual and motivational biases, and people tend not to recognise their own bias, though they tend to easily recognise (and even overestimate) the operation of bias in human judgment by others.
[you always comment every damn post in every thread]
.. they pick and choose according to their own needs.
[Does that sounds familiar?]

Not every damn post and not every thread, but yes, there are threads I visit and comment on more often than others. What does it prove? That I am most probably interested in those subjects and/or have my opinion about it and am not afraid to share it. That includes topics I may not even be related to, e.g. how ZA plays out their RP barely effects any of my characters, yet I still voice my concern on how it deviates from anything I've seen/experienced from Zoner factions.

Another thing is it's kind of redundant to state that somebody is biased, of course he is, we all are towards something to an extent. We are all humans after all. That I am biased in what I say, I'll deny, which is the obvious answer to any similar accusations, and then you can't really decide whether I really am or not. It's similar to asking, are you telling a lie to me? The obvious answer is no, for obvious reasons.

The problem I see is that there is sometimes a lack of communication between indies and official factions...

Exactly. Few indies make attempt to even communicate with official factions, and it's sad to say, but I got tired after a few attempts to initiate communication with them too.

Especially on the part where some indies don't even speak English or partly understands English...

That is an issue I don't really feel being addressed by anyone competent here, even despite there being a server rule about it.

On RNC, I don't think they have a problem with communication just because seeing their combat strategy ingame means that they have organization/teamwork and such... but their PROBLEM is that they don't know when their actions become a thorn on the side. Ergo, they don't even know their endless raiding NY or Texas become a nuisance rather than fun gameplay.

They know it well, it's been told them many times. The problem is that they don't give a ...

Anyways, those are my opinions.... they may not be about capital ships but as I've said... there isn't a problem about capital ships... its the PEOPLE... the PEOPLE who USE THEM.

That is why restricting cap usage was suggested. To restrict them to the ones actually capable to use them.

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[Anaximander]

Heh this thread again. Nothing is wrong with caps, it's how people use them. Currently I can only really think of 2 specific cap problems, which are 1) When they wreck a good ongoing snub brawl and 2) When they feed snubs (in which case the snub pilot is 50 percent responsible). That caps can guard a zone and refuse entry to my snub; I don't care. Cap attacking my snub - I don't care, I can run. There really aren't that many problems with caps, it's just in the minds of people and quite a while back it has somehow become fashionable to complain about caps here.

May I add - and no offense meant by the following - that just last week I got überganked by OP & friends gate-camping in Scyllas with /l1 style roleplay (2-3 Scyllas, gunboats and God knows how many bombers on 1 lone LABC); as well as got myself severely ganked by 101st, K'hara and friends (an Irra, a Ranseur, a gunboat and a number of bombers on one lone Mako) - I don't mind, people play to have fun and shoot at stuff, but there's a certain level of double standards and naïvity to think that just because you slap a tag on a ship all of a sudden people will behave all angelical and fairplay-like.

It's a game, we should go out and enjoy it and spend more of our time worrying about our own actions than make assumptions regarding other people's actions.