Zoners

[Curios]

You would be very right, if Sirius people, who are living in, approximely 1000 years after, from ours day, would have same production potential as we do now. Yes, I agree, that building naval carrier ships, as space shuttles and space stations, is indeed damn hard and expensive, however, we are just in the beginning of the way. First naval ship, capable of launching and landing aircrafts, was build around 100 yers ago, even a bit less. 1918 HMS-Argus, was that first aircraft carrier in the world. Well, only 100 years passed, it's not that much, considering, for how long, our ancients were using swords, bows and arrows....
And we don't even know, what industrial, production, and research potential, would have our civilization, after another 100 or 200 years. Who knows, may be in 2213 year, build up a space frigate will be NP at all.

Don't forget to adjust the actual historical experience to the game's reality. Like while we're talking about the battleships of the 1600-1900 years you need to know that they were made of wooden planks and moving by the force of wind. The 1900-1950 era ships are were almost the same - just sailing fortress made of steel. And even then it was super hard to build and maintain even few. Out production potential is growing, yes. But with that grows the complexity of the produced materials. The ships we're talking about are flying into the space, not sailing the salty waters so this complicates the production, development and construction into the whole new level.

And, again, you are right. Like we have in game, a mass production of Legates, like was with Osirises, Ranceurs (Sarrisa sux, so nobody gona mass produce her)
Still, they all can build few of them. Like, Benitez has Osiris, Sails have Osiris, TBH has Osiris and Legate. And, don't forget, that there are 3 more Osirises as stationared bases. But eh, sairs are biggest unlawfull faction, what do ya want?

Technology, sairs partly had from the Order, Junkers, some parts and components were delivered by Samura.

Outcasts can do "open mind" and 4234153423 X 12321312+325123 / 334125^5 in their mind, so developing capital ship, is kid's play for them.
Other tech can be purchased from Junkers, along with some parts, which can't be manufactured by Outcasts.

And again, let's see. So there are Drug dealer cartels, Somali pirates, etc. Image them buying classified military technology and establishing a construction of the, let's say, the last-tier modern frigates. Well, they won't even bother with such a thing, right?

All the RP justifications for many factions to have capitals are pure idiocy and usually just exist to be an excuse for that faction to have battleships. And you're clearly overrating outcast abilities.

---

[Bootsiuv]

The 1900-1950 era ships are were almost the same - just sailing fortress made of steel.

WWII was not won by thousands of sailing ships.

Pretty sure sails were on their way out around the turn of the century, although I'm sure many ships still used them after that.

Sorry for the irrelevant aside, but I'm a history

Hmmm, on topic.

End teh misery. This cannot be fun anymore for anyone involved. This may be the largest zoner-originated QQ event in disco history. It even found it's way into my beloved CR chat, much to my chagrin.

---

[Curios]

Sailing doesn't mean going on sails, maybe I'm using the wrong words since I'm not the native english speaker after all. I meant the ships that are made of steel and go on engines. I'm taking the biggest and the most expensive ships of the era into consideration such are Iowa class, Yamato class, Tirpitz, Petropavlovsk, etc.

---

[Bootsiuv]

Sailing doesn't mean going on sails, maybe I'm using the wrong words since I'm not the native english speaker after all. I meant the ships that are made of steel and go on engines. I'm taking the biggest and the most expensive ships of the era into consideration such are Iowa class, Yamato class, Tirpitz, Petropavlovsk, etc.

Oh...my bad then.

Carry on with teh negotiations. (bow)

---

[Lonely_Ghost]

Don't forget to adjust the actual historical experience to the game's reality. Like while we're talking about the battleships of the 1600-1900 years you need to know that they were made of wooden planks and moving by the force of wind. The 1900-1950 era ships are were almost the same - just sailing fortress made of steel. And even then it was super hard to build and maintain even few. Out production potential is growing, yes. But with that grows the complexity of the produced materials. The ships we're talking about are flying into the space, not sailing the salty waters so this complicates the production, development and construction into the whole new level.

Sure that complexity of the produced materials will grow. What a point then, to build carrier from wood, or cast iron? Still, if people can build such ships, that means, they have technology and industrials, which can produce materials for a reasoneble price, and time. When our industrial will alowe us to produce current materials even easer, we shall think about even more complex materials, and then, our industry will be developed to make those materials to be produced cheaper and faster.
Why, actually, in same way, zoners could build their ships. Let's say, 300 years ago, thety indeed had no ability to build something like Battleships, may be they had no such need. However, when they decided, that they need ship of such type, they started to design, improve, research, may be even buy something, to achive their goal. Yes, it's very hard and expensive to build Nephilim, however, zoners industry and production are capable of doing this job.

P.S. But this not means, thet gona fly everywhere on those Nephilim and doing mess.

And again, let's see. So there are Drug dealer cartels, Somali pirates, etc. Image them buying classified military technology and establishing a construction of the, let's say, the last-tier modern frigates. Well, they won't even bother with such a thing, right?

First of all, Corsairs and Outcasts are whole nations, which a bit more than any cartel, pirate gank, or else we know.
Second point. No need to forgot, that they had some basic knowledges, and probably, they had some stuff with them, which could help them in colonization.
In any way, owercame most of our advanced technology pretty soon, plus, Dauman explorer gave them small gift, in face of his exploring ships.
Plus, Im mostly sure, that along with pirated goods, both, Outcasts and Corsairs were picking up some parts from destroyed ships, to research them, and find something usefull in technology.
So, Corsairs and Outcasts, even just in the beginning of their Crete and Malta colonization, were probably more technologically developed, then we are now.

[DarthBindo]

And, again, you are right. Like we have in game, a mass production of Legates, like was with Osirises, Ranceurs (Sarrisa sux, so nobody gona mass produce her)
Still, they all can build few of them. Like, Benitez has Osiris, Sails have Osiris, TBH has Osiris and Legate. And, don't forget, that there are 3 more Osirises as stationared bases. But eh, sairs are biggest unlawfull faction, what do ya want?

Technology, sairs partly had from the Order, Junkers, some parts and components were delivered by Samura.

Outcasts can do "open mind" and 4234153423 X 12321312+325123 / 334125^5 in their mind, so developing capital ship, is kid's play for them.
Other tech can be purchased from Junkers, along with some parts, which can't be manufactured by Outcasts.

And again, let's see. So there are Drug dealer cartels, Somali pirates, etc. Image them buying classified military technology and establishing a construction of the, let's say, the last-tier modern frigates. Well, they won't even bother with such a thing, right?

All the RP justifications for many factions to have capitals are pure idiocy and usually just exist to be an excuse for that faction to have battleships. And you're clearly overrating outcast abilities.

Comparing Outcasts to cartels, and the Corsairs to Somalians is pure idiocy that ignores large portions of vanilla lore and even larger portions of Disco lore.
The Hispanic factions started off at the same place technologically as any other House. The Empire is 700 years old, the Maltese Nation 400, both having settled on planets rich in minerals and natural resources. Hell, the cardamine effect makes the Outcasts significantly more intelligent, stronger, faster, and longer-lived than the average human.
The only difference between the progress of The Houses and The Hispanic Houses is the late acquisition by both the Corsairs and the Outcasts of the technology Ageira pulled from the Valhalla Project, i.e trade lane tech, cruise engines, all that good stuff.
Their system and sector development started late, but it is by no means slow.
Hell, by lore Corsairs are some of the best damn shipwrights in all of Sirius, with repeated infocard and rumour references, both vanilla and Disco, to their shipbuilding prowess.
If you ever find yourself doubting the place the Hispanic Houses have in Discovery, just hop on over to the Wiki and stare at the main page.
Just go on.
Look.

---

gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|

[Curios]

And, again, you are right. Like we have in game, a mass production of Legates, like was with Osirises, Ranceurs (Sarrisa sux, so nobody gona mass produce her)
Still, they all can build few of them. Like, Benitez has Osiris, Sails have Osiris, TBH has Osiris and Legate. And, don't forget, that there are 3 more Osirises as stationared bases. But eh, sairs are biggest unlawfull faction, what do ya want?

Technology, sairs partly had from the Order, Junkers, some parts and components were delivered by Samura.

Outcasts can do "open mind" and 4234153423 X 12321312+325123 / 334125^5 in their mind, so developing capital ship, is kid's play for them.
Other tech can be purchased from Junkers, along with some parts, which can't be manufactured by Outcasts.

And again, let's see. So there are Drug dealer cartels, Somali pirates, etc. Image them buying classified military technology and establishing a construction of the, let's say, the last-tier modern frigates. Well, they won't even bother with such a thing, right?

All the RP justifications for many factions to have capitals are pure idiocy and usually just exist to be an excuse for that faction to have battleships. And you're clearly overrating outcast abilities.

Comparing Outcasts to cartels, and the Corsairs to Somalians is pure idiocy that ignores large portions of vanilla lore and even larger portions of Disco lore.
The Hispanic factions started off at the same place technologically as any other House. The Empire is 700 years old, the Maltese Nation 400, both having settled on planets rich in minerals and natural resources. Hell, the cardamine effect makes the Outcasts significantly more intelligent, stronger, faster, and longer-lived than the average human.
The only difference between the progress of The Houses and The Hispanic Houses is the late acquisition by both the Corsairs and the Outcasts of the technology Ageira pulled from the Valhalla Project, i.e trade lane tech, cruise engines, all that good stuff.
Their system and sector development started late, but it is by no means slow.
Hell, by lore Corsairs are some of the best damn shipwrights in all of Sirius, with repeated infocard and rumour references, both vanilla and Disco, to their shipbuilding prowess.

Good day,

you're clearly forgetting the part where corsairs got their first ship. So please stop wave the "lore"-peen around while you're not into the topic yourself.

thanks in advance.

P.S. : http://discoverygc.com/wiki/Corsairs

Also I like the shipbuilding part, it's getting pulled out of the jacket quiet fast without understanding what's the story behind this "better shipbuilding". I'll throw a tip - better in what way?

---

[JIVA]

Not quite the original topic, but Curios has a point. The official Microsoft site tells a story about the 4 Houses that realized their todays status not by any mythical project but by eventually finding each other in the sector and starting to rely heavily on interaction.

The recipe for their success has also been Ageira for sure, but the real basis of their success has been their teamwork. Each house has resources and needs and only together they pulled off becoming what they are today.

The hispanic factions have missed out on that part entirely, so they had no chance to exhange goods.

As each ship settled and colonies began to expand, they knew little about each other and their advancing development. Finally, little by little, the individual colonies found each other and began to set up trade routes to link their systems for commerce and solidarity.

Today, with each colony firmly rooted in its respective corner of the galaxy, the colonies rely heavily on each other for trade and industry but also compete for resources and new territories in the Border Worlds. The colonies mandate member governments in "The New Alliance" within the Sirius sector.

This is a quote from the official Microsoft Freelancer site.

The key is trade - and solidarity, not so much the lane system. I think we can assume that once they knew of each other, they could have conducted trade in a much less efficient way with jumpships.

The tradelanes are not enabling ships to travel long distances per se. Ships were able to do that before. The Lanes and Gates enable ships without jumpdrives to travel long distances.

With that said, it is arguable how much the more isolated factions prospered because they had no chance to benefit from the various spoils of the diversity of resources.

---

the [JIVA] group

[Lonely_Ghost]

Let's not forget, that Corsairs made to Crete not by bicycles. They had crafts, which were able to fly throught atmosphere and land on unprepared surface. Even it were esc. pods, they can own every space craft we have. I doubt, that we could be able to perform something like this on space shuttle, where a mistake of few degree, in descending trajectory could cause ship to burn. Im not even talking about landing somewhere but not runway.
So, it's obviouse, that our tech sux, compared to their.

Yes, can't disagree, corsairs were in some kind of isolation, but they didn't turned into wilders, and they understood, how to control Schulman's ships, and...... folowing logic, in time, they could build something similar, and even more advanced.

Another point: When Corsairs were pirating, same with Outcasts, they would proable find something usefull from wrecks of ships.
Just think- parts, which haven't been affected by explosion, and survived attack. This can give great potential in science of materials, engineering and so on.
(off topic, sry, but guys, Corsairs are even cooler that Kushans from Homeworld!)

[Anaximander]

Dunno, Corsairs and Outcasts have those planets that's been settled for a long time (and aren't haphazard Disco add-ons) - obviously they aren't huge empires with tonnes of systems, near-infinite resources, super fast tradelane shipping, and several settled planets like the Houses; yet they are more than just rabble or people living on the fringe. They each have their strengths lore-wise and have both survived for a very long time; most definitely on a different scale than Zoners power-wise if you look at vanilla.

Whether or not that should warrant that they have caps, I don't know - both have far more plausible stories than the Zoners do (or don't - still not sure if that alien thing is true).

Personally I wouldn't mind if Unlawfuls lost their battleships or caps altogether, but that's due to my personal preference of play-style more than anything.