Now, I have submitted a sanction a few times and it actually needs quite a bit of information.
That being said, I *know* that it is only the first step in the process.
A decision to sanction someone is NOT made by a single person, I understand that several moderators are required to review each sanction before a decision is reached, then a random moderator posts the results/punishment, in whichever way they see fit.
I have seen occasions where sanctions have been reversed.
So far, I'm fairly happy with the sanction process, sure sometimes I think the punishment for some things is a little harsh, but it's mostly fairly evenhanded I think.
You both had a choice.
And then we suddenly get to the heart of the matter.
Well, the community wouldn't have held breaking that rule against you.
I can't speak for continously dragging it up when it starts getting more clear that, perhaps, you're posting out of raw emotion.
We can debate the semantics of this for ages.
And who is right and who is wrong.
HOWEVER.
What you two are suggesting would only work in a more perfect world. Where people have more opportunities and better ways of filing a sanction report.
A lot of people report people gibbing them in space as a direct result of losing.
Rather, because they're still upset about dying or something.
The current system prevents quite a bit of abuse in this manner.
Just like the rule that's in place where you shouldn't be able to log your alt to gib that same guy in the system you just died in.
I'm not going to insult you by saying the system is perfect.
I AM going to point out that the fact that you (the two of you, and I'm not pointing fingers, you're being obvious with these posts) have made at least two threads on the same subject after being shot down on the first one, because of the same incident, makes you look a lot less respectable than any amount of breaking that particular rule.
Why?
Because you bring a lot of baggage along into what could have been a sensible discussion.
But that's my -opinion-.
You're free to have your own way of viewing bringing up old cases the community probably wasn't going to pay attention to after the fact.
Edit: TL;DR I know it can hurt having your credibility/ego take a hit like this.
Waving it in everyone's faces doesn't make it better.
One of these days, there will be a clever, stylish and/or funny signature here.
This is still not that day, however.
(11-08-2013, 03:39 PM)Vigilia.Procuratio Wrote:
So what you're saying is that if there's a slight possibility somebody's innocent, they should instead be sanctioned because of the greater chance that they're guilty?
Yes. I would feel totally comfortable if the sanctions hit 80 % of the righ people, 10 % of the shady people and 10 % of innocents. It's no perfect system. It's no perfect world. And... most important: It is a game. You weren't banned. No real harm occured in that sanction. You likely lost a few credits and some guns. Takes you 30 minutes to get them back, or whine to a veteran friend about unjust admins and he will give you 200 mils to make you stop it.
This is not real life where the punishment would really matter.
Quote: If the accused comes forward proclaiming that very slight chance of innocence then it must be eliminated. Simply saying "No, you're wrong" just isn't good enough; proof must be provided.
Exactly. Jails are full of people who claim innocence.
Just provide evidence that it was not as the reporting party claims and you get out of the sanction. Happened quite a few times. It's also common that the party that initially reported the rule infraction gets sanctioned for malicious reporting, which is quite a harsh sanction.
If however you cannot prove it: tough luck. Happens. It's not pretty, but it's also not the end of the world.
Quote:I don't want to know what profanity somebody wrote, I don't want to know what cheat somebody might have abused, but I do want to know what somebody has done wrong when there is quite clearly a serious lack of evidence to prove their guilt.
The community doesn't have to know.
There is no need and no positive factors of such openness.
The sanction thread is not a pillory where you can watch the people who have been shamed and laugh your ass off for their mistakes. It would incite intensive hate if someone well-liked is punished and glee when someone who is hated is listed there. If we all could also see the luzy moments of when someone blew his fuse and went on a verbal rampage, this community would be even crappier that it already is.
Every possible result of opening the evidence to the public is unwanted and unnecessary.
When people go to jail there is usually undeniable evidence to support that sentence, at least in a fair state of politics. If 10% of the incarcerated population are innocent then that's a very serious problem for society. While incomparable to the real world, if 10% of sanctions are unjust then that is a serious problem for server game-play. If somebody puts forward a solid case against a sanction then at the very least it should be heard and responded to. If other players have a genuine problem with a sanction which they were not involved in then they should at least have the right to put their concerns forward. As it stands, many complaints have been quite bluntly, and maybe rudely, completely ignored. I'm not saying this applies in general, but sometimes.
Anyway, I don't think I really have anything more to say on this. I certainly didn't post this to discuss particular sanctions so I guess I'll just leave this as my final thoughts on the matter.
(11-08-2013, 05:26 PM)Vigilia.Procuratio Wrote: When people go to jail there is usually undeniable evidence to support that sentence, at least in a fair state of politics, that is. If 10% of people in the incarcerated population are innocent then that's a very serious problem for society. While incomparable to the real world, if 10% of sanctions are unjust then that is a serious problem for server game-play. If somebody puts forward a solid case against a sanction the at the very least it should be heard and responded to. If other players have a problem with a sanction which they were not involved in then they should at least have the right to put their concerns forward. As it stands, many complaints are quite bluntly, and rudely sometimes, completely ignored.
Are you an idealist?
"Undeniable evidence"?
It may seem like it.
There's also such a thing as being framed.
The people in the jury, people who decide the verdict, are usually just regular people (at least in the US, as far as I know), which means they're very susceptible to such things as arguments that are simply constructed to play on the jury's emotions.
My point? Law isn't perfect.
It helps, but it isn't perfect.
Stop fooling yourself.
One of these days, there will be a clever, stylish and/or funny signature here.
This is still not that day, however.
(11-08-2013, 04:10 PM)Texas.Red Wrote: For instance. I get reported in one of the latest threads for staying in a system after death with terrible evidence when I am clearly innocent. What do the admins? They lock the thread. So now, I not only lose money but my reputation on the server looking like a rule breaker. This is not good for me nor the factions I play for. Seriously? I know admins have a ton of work to do. Why close threads with evidence that is not sufficient and up for debate? I'm not happy at all.
I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I want to be treated fairly on this server and it doesn't look like that's happening.
That thread got closed due to the useless arguing back and forth among you fellows in there. If you want to debate the legitimacy of the sanction, the people you should be speaking to are the admins directly (via pm), arguing with other community members, no matter which side they are on doesn't really get anyone anywhere.
(11-08-2013, 04:10 PM)Texas.Red Wrote: For instance. I get reported in one of the latest threads for staying in a system after death with terrible evidence when I am clearly innocent. What do the admins? They lock the thread. So now, I not only lose money but my reputation on the server looking like a rule breaker. This is not good for me nor the factions I play for. Seriously? I know admins have a ton of work to do. Why close threads with evidence that is not sufficient and up for debate? I'm not happy at all.
I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I want to be treated fairly on this server and it doesn't look like that's happening.
That thread got closed due to the useless arguing back and forth among you fellows in there. If you want to debate the legitimacy of the sanction, the people you should be speaking to are the admins directly (via pm), arguing with other community members, no matter which side they are on doesn't really get anyone anywhere.
Except they haven't responded to PMs, and their evidence was flimsy at best. Now they've closed it, which means there's very little to be done to prove innocence. That is the reason those sanctioned are irritated. I would be too, in that situation. It's a tarnish to the reputation, ya know?
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