new thread, cause i think the discussion in the faction activity tracker is not spot on ...
so without further ado - just an idea how we may reform the system on several ends
i will first write down the constructive ideas - and for those who WANT to read them a wall of text afterwards about how i assess the current situation. that way you don t need to work your way through stuff you may not be interested in.
the community has kind of 4 different types of players
- official factions
- unofficial factions
- veterans ( whom i put into a separate group for a reason )
- indies ( those are the ones without influence due to their name and forum presence )
idea A) TRANSPARENT process of submitting ideas for future mod direction as well as active participation on the decision making process.
B) REVISION of the faction rights - an idea is that not only the 1st and 2nd in command gets the official rights to enforce them, but also any other member with a sufficient time under his belt as a faction member.
C) slight perks in terms of customization, NOT balance of stats.
regarding A)
contrary to public believe - or at least the believe of some members - official factions have and also had a great influence in terms of where the mod goes. - if i was to draw a graph of influence - it would be like that:
- story devs / devs first
- official fraction petitions
- influencial individuals regardless of faction affinity
true indies and kind of unofficial factions never had any significant impact on the storyline - unless confirmed by official factions.
but to make the process more "user friendly" an idea would indeed be to draw up:
- a clear process how to submit ideas
- a forum where only devs and the factions involved ( which sometimes includes factions not primarily thought of included ) can publicly ( thats important for accountability ) discuss claims about changes and compromises.
- a schedule how and when things are included ( depending mostly on providing devs who can submit the changes )
in general - i do think that changes are usually better than no changes - even BAD changes are often better than none. - if we turn disco into a more dynamic place, any bad change can be reverted, any change can change another time again.
Right now - such processes are mostly done in secret ( unintentionally in secret most of the time ) - such processes are too opaque to function as real precidents. - once they are transparent - participation is easier.
regarding B)
again - personally i think that faction RIGHTS are wrongly labelled. they should be "faction rights to humbly ask the admins...".
while the faction rights are mostly OK as they are - i feel that it might not be detrimental to allow factions to police them themselves without the admins. - so even if they do not get the console commands - it should not be the admins deciding if something is ok or not ( unless something is CLEARLY meant to troll or pure abuse ) - abuse of those rights can be dealt with - but factions ought to have the right to - well... execute their "rights".
maybe the faction rights would need to be revised again a bit. - but all in all i don t see much harm in giving official factions those perks.
it might also be beneficial to allow all members, not only the 1st or 2nd in command to execute those rights.
in many cases - the actual active members of a faction after some time is more like half a dozen anyway - but it would of course make sense when its not a low rank trying to enforce a FR vs. a captain who is not in the faction - for that reason a faction can use a highly ranked shared ship so it does not break immersion.
regarding C)
we have reached a point where adding new models and stuff is not even a tertiary concern anymore. - but we can add variations - and while it is still quite some work - there might be benefits in factions working on getting their own shipskins etc. . changes should not be a balance issue but purely cosmetic. - when things are unbalanced it creates a rift between factions and non factions - which is unhealthy at that state of the mod.
here is how i see the state of things ( this again is just a personal pov )
the mod is mostly driven by prominent members, regardless of faction or not. - the main question ppl asked in the other thread was "but what can official factions do to be more popular than indies"
my answer would firstly be : by not comparing to indies
an official faction is a CLOSED system - and motivation to BE in a faction and to remain in a faction must come from WITHIN. - for that ... factions have - for years - built on a ranking system resembling a pyramid.
that means - few members on top, many members on the bottom. - when everyone is equal - you can only achieve difference by volunteering to be on the bottom of a chain. that way you create motivation to climb up the ladder.
this happens in RL - and it works because in RL - the system is highly dynamic. room is made on top frequently - and new members join in larger numbers to maintain the pyramid shape.
but what happens in disco? - the faction leader does not easily make room - so the top of the chain stagnates - but if ppl cannot move up, there won t be a motivation anymore. - in order to move up however, you need room - otherwise you turn the pyramid upside down - and in the end - you are nothing different from the indies - even within your own system.
so you either need a more dynamic system - or the pyramid needs to expand as a whole - so if there are more members on top - you need a lot more new low rank members - which won t happen.
with that in mind - you need to consider how beneficial such a system is. - some members WANT to be low ranked - and an alternative is of course when high ranked members also create new low ranked members - but those low ranked members are no "real" low ranks, they are just alter egos of a player who also has a high rank.
so personally - i do not think these self restrictions are of great benefit in a SMALLER community - only as a static system, but not to attract new members. however - i do know that a substantial number of people believe self restriction equals "better roleplay"
now - indies - they have little to no impact on the mod as such - but they do have a great impact on the daily gameplay experience - mostly because they are more numerous. numerically speaking - i HAVE seen more ( subjectively ) bad RP by indies, but that is to be expected - when 80% of the ppl you meet are not in factions - by percent - i still maintain that there is no difference between the positive impact on the roleplay by indies or factions. ( and the negative impact )
i daresay most indies won t care much if official factions get some more customization options, self sufficient faction rights and more say in the story process. - but they will care when players of equal skill and equal ships favour one side by stats.
the last point about the prominent members...
i do not say it is a conspiracy, cause that would really require better planning, nor that its only skype friends. - but the mod is of course driven by members who are able to make connections and know who to speak to. - that also includes players who know HOW to speak up.
with that in mind - in the past ( up to 4.85 release kind of ) - it was mostly players with a good idea regardless of faction affiliation or anything who just made a good point in a civilized manner - who drove the mod. - except gallia - kind of - which was a vision by igiss for the most part - and his RIGHT to do, no matter what.
however this system lacks transparency - and only really worked up to a point. so giving official factions more power is something to consider - as long as they also keep in mind that a demand or wish for change does not equal that this wish is fulfilled. - in most cases - compromises MUST and WILL be made - and the outcome might be very different from the initial request.
the above ideas ( A, B & C ) might give factions just the edge to gain more popularity in a long term without restricting others or creating a balance in favour or one group or another.
faction leaders and devs would need to CHANGE their ways ( especially devs ) substantially - but factions especially would need to be much more open minded for compromise when its about change. but when the dev team stops considering "change" to be absolute - but in most cases just "temporary" - not much harm can be done. it means that a faction can win one day - but also loose another day .... .without personal bad feelings.
I agree with making some of developing transparent to players/factions to see.
I disagree with adding bad content jut for the sake of it. Why should we cultivate changes if all they are going to bring is worse mod and things harder to retcon in the end? We need quality control, not damage control.
I agree that there has to be an incentive to fly official.
The incentive has to outweigh the negative aspects of flying tagged/official, which can be HUGE.
Therefore purely cosmetic doesn't cut it, in my book.
As this is the "proper" channel, I'll repeat what I posted in the actity check channel:
Give official factions a slight bonus, like in "Select 2 that fit your faction."
> + W % hull strength
> + X % power output
> + Y % damage
> + Z % cargo hold
Some advantages that you can grasp, that really exist but are not big enough to break the system.
Let's face it, 5 % likely doesn't change anything, but it would motivate people (just watch how many players still QQ, when they "only" have a 90% core). Small changes are mainly psychologic in their effect.
(01-04-2014, 05:57 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: I agree that there has to be an incentive to fly official.
The incentive has to outweigh the negative aspects of flying tagged/official, which can be HUGE.
Therefore purely cosmetic doesn't cut it, in my book.
(...)
Firstly, as a long-term indy, and only dipping my toe in official waters once (twice?), I gotta agree with your first part. To the general indy, looking into official faction recruitment, it comes across as a list of instructions and/or limitations. Regardless of how small that list is, even if it is just spending time to write an in-RP app, it is still something more to do that an indy does not. And in return? Hehe, well, with 'balance' all indy's are to be given free access to their faction's (Read - "their ID's") tech. As such, they gain nothing special in return but a couple of letters/symbols prefixing their name. And some minor prominence in the highly elitist social structure of disco. Oh, and some responsibility.
Now, so far, that's a three to one, so, the official factions tend to see that as good, howerver, from an average indy's point of view, a suffix is the same as an ID, and means nothing, prominence and renown ((in)fame(y) if you you will) are meaningless compared to the vet's so is not something to be sought, and responsibility. Oh responsibility. Well, (personally) a huge turn-off for games is the feeling you're obligated to play, either because your faction needs actives, or because you've *got* to make a report on X interaction. It's a game, not a job, and responsibility should only be taken on by those who wish it, and not be the shackles that come with flying official.
Right, that's the problem with official factions from my PoV, and sadly the solution is short, simple, and controversial. That factions need to be 'special' from Indy's again. Or rather, appeal to indys. To relate to the OP, power in the form of a more dynamic power structure sounds like a great way to go. That by joining an official, players can become more involved in development of that faction through a transparent development process, where everything is submitted vied, discussed, and ultimately judged independently and openly, regardless of who's idea it was and what 'social pressure' it has behind it.
Alas, perfect world... Well, for every 100 that would sit down and discuss in detail what a perfect system could be, coming out of what is a pseudo-feudal system, with social power ruling absolute, is impossible. That's down to the fact that if even one of the 'elite', 'veterans' or 'well-connected' want to keep things behind closed doors. So it shall stay. History itself, in a (slightly) extreme comparison, shows us that *EVERY* community/country/civilisation that starts with this form of power balance will have a large fight on their hands to shift it.
Seeing as with discovery there is NO reason or incitement for the 'elites' or 'vets' to share their power, nor reprimand if they don not, they simply shall not. After all, it's not like they rely on the lower echelons of the player-base for anything, ulike the compared communities. They have absolute control, and giving illusions of sharing it (IE: FR's having to be asked for) only makes them appear less so.
*sigh* I feel I've divuldged from the topic at hand a little, so I shall digress with a conclusion.
TL;DR
Much as there are many, many, MANY problems, they cannot, and will not change, no matter how much talking could be achieved. As such it is my personal opinion not to fight what you cannot control. Lords will rule their land as they see fit, and the serfs shall merely beg.
Oh, and by all means, constructive criticism, suggestions, and disagreements are appreciated. This thread has given me a plan to write my thoughts on the matter down in a more concise way for future replies. Which will be this time tomorrow, 'tis Saturday night after all.
I'd start with cleaning out the fail content. Revise the gameplay - this goes first in my book. Especially this concerns the PoB usage. Especially the fact that POBs are usually (in 90% cases actually by my own accounting) used as area denial tool that destroy any possible gameplay in the area where it's designed to happen. Example is a POB placed inside the mining field right on the spot - pirates won't go there so nothing is going to happen there from the Pirate-Merchant-Navy triangle everyone likes to speak about.
The second are rules - especially those that allow people to go full ballistic on being assholes. Also admin hard control right on the server might be of a help.
As third I'd go for fixing prices, balancing smuggling, trading and mining, revising the system layouts, especially the jump hole positions. In the current mod version travelling between systems as unlawful is awfully broken. Whoever designed this is probably never tried to play unlawful in the first place - thus we have all those hilariously placed jump holes and 100k cruise travels through empty space. Smuggling and unlawful activity needs jump hole system that allows to travel not only as fast as on lanes, but actually faster because the exits are limited by very few anyway.
Then, I, personally, agreeing on the server wipe. Seriously - this move can allow devs to fix a crap load of stuff that can't be fixed by normal means at that moment. Also with proper profits\costs tweak we'll have everything less accessible, I'd rise the ship's prices a way up as well as weapon prices while decreasing overall profit. However people must not be afraid to die - thus repair cost and ammo costs must be relatively low.
Just remember - the fun is not in the ownership of the piled up pixel money and ships - the fun is in the process of getting the stuff together. It's same as starting over in minecraft once you're bored with your skull-shaped castle with lava going off the eyes.
(01-04-2014, 05:57 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: > + W % hull strength
> + X % power output
> + Y % damage
> + Z % cargo hold
Why would I bother playing this game? You shouldn't try to force me to play in your faction if I don't want to, I'd rather go play something less cult-like. Luckily the devs aren't ludicrous and want people to actually play their game, so let's be a little sensible if this is going to be constructive.
I like Jinx's suggestion, I also thought FR5 should be a faction governed thing, a roleplay "punishment" that can be invoked and revoked at faction leisure, rather than something short of a sanction. It doesn't sit right, players should be able to roleplay their way to a FR5 fairly easily, and be able to roleplay their way back to a neutral relationship and get docking rights again. Could be fun.
I know most don't care, but I think some of the suggestions in the thread, not the op, are pointing totally in the wrong direction if you want factions to get popular again.
hmm not bad , although very ellaborate ... One side thing is how to evaluate whos indie ? Maybe some official faction player had in same time on acount several indie ship when he want to play relaxed RP if i can put in that way. Your evaluation of service ratio of offical factions versa other categories would be right , but could be wrong and in both cases not to say anything about quality of server rp performance. Much more variabiles in game which are hard to include in equitation.
So A --> idea for transparency sounds good , but what does it mean practically? that more noise will create better speech ?
In short your ideas are credible , but i wonder would be utilisation for that - as Omicron stated quality control or damage control... ...that was rightly put in.
to elaborate the FR5 especially - there are 2 versions of it that could technically be applied
there is the - 0.9 version - that sets a player and/or group (tag) hostile - but they can by bribe or killing enemies of that same faction - make up for it - a natural rep up from being hostile. - that one could be faction controlled without much detrimental misuse.
- 1.0 version - that sets the player and/or group (tag) hostile - with NO way to rep up without admin help. the reputation is locked hostile, no matter what (like nomads are hostile to others, even if you kill countless of their enemies)
that one could be admin controlled or allowed to be requested.
additionally - there could also be a +0.9 verion and a +1.0 version to make real friends that are even able to fire a train CD into a furball angering only the enemies but not the friends.
adjustments would need to be made for factions that have no own direct reputation mod ( up to a point like zoners - but you can rep up with them by assisting GMG still )
FR5s have never worked.
They will never work.
Even -1.0 FR5s failed against people who were willing to go to some length.
The FR5 is nothing that gives official factions anything but a big headache and they are basically a waste of time that only aids the targetted party that doesn't have to do the repping to red, which would cost them time.
I have likely filed between 20 and 30 FR5s. The result of these hours has been... negligible at best.
Forget that tool.
It is blunt and not viable to raise the attractivity of official factions.
Discussion is all fine and well but I for one would like to know what limits the dev team would be go to in terms of ships and resources (cloaks, removing stuff, PoBS etc.) If we have an idea about what changes would be acceptable things would be much easier.
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