concerning factions and their influence

[Govedo13]

Your problem is that you think thatRP is the main goal of the server and the main reson for the people to log on. By giving nothing to the factions the devs and admins cannot require anything from factions.People play the game to have fun and would always take the shorter and easiest way to do it. If the devs and admins fail to reward more the people doing more then people are not motivated to do more right ?

Proof:
In fact the whole situation about groups with tons of RP background and years history fighting to have 5 people on is covered here:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1464394
Check the deep in-rp story behind and how well are deveoped the characters and how nice is the diplomacy of the said group, then compare the number of the people to join the group with some of the warned official factions. I counted 4 people willing to join the said group even if they does not have a name,let alone rp goals or diplomacy.
If this facts cannot explain the reasoning behind my position I guess it is better just to give up.

If you expect that some of them called factions should know better then give them something to motivate them or just kill the whole faction concept since it is not working obviously.

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Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Sabru]

If you expect that some of them called factions should know better then give them something to motivate them or just kill the whole faction concept since it is not working obviously.

Absolutely right.

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[Mímir]

Limitations are fun when you chose to do so, some of my characters are closed economy, some fly crappy gear for roleplay reasons and some are also CAU8 Cloaked Battleship captains refusing to ever set foot in a flimsy snub. Does it improve roleplay? Not if you ask me, a position of command on a battleship is not something you reach in a few years like a character would progress in Disco anyway, but it becomes a fun game-within-the-game to follow rules and restrictions (who doesn't like to level up and receive achievements, we play computer games after all), and it can be a source of inspiration.

Everyone shouldn't be forced to do so though, I can't see how that would make neither me nor other players any more happy and fulfilled. We don't all have to be the same. The truth is I would personally join any faction that seems to be fun-loving and letting me roleplay the (reasonable) characters and ships I want; but the avenues offered in most factions are so limited that I wouldn't see myself really enjoying it - I would have to adhere to "acknowledged truths" like snubs are more pr0 than caps, indies can't roleplay, all factions are super, and I can't be troubled with going against the stream when I can just choose not to and let those people play the game their way - but at the same turn I'll always defend my right to play the game I see fit within the rules, and I think that is perfectly fair and something factions should really accept once and for all and then build on that, because extra toys or not there is a huge potential.

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[Remilia Scarlet]

Eh...

Actually the "game", any metaphysical game you can think about is a set of rules and limitations. Without limitations there is no game. Limitations here allow us to have a more immerse RP surroundings, like we know that there is a fixed and relatively small amount of battleships inRP even for such house as Liberty so it strikes me deep when I see them on every corner. But then people go further and put their totally oorp battleship hordes as actual RP essence and start talking about changing something in relation to this.

And what about factions? Factions are not necessary. You have mystical rights to control something yet there is nothing to control. And no one that would follow you anyway. The only thing is a TAG which allows you to /fm and /fi. Apart from that you don't even need a tag as a whole since it is, in fact, a shiny neon sign over your head while someone taps "Y". Well known factions are bound and forced to use a tag in order to have their activity tracked and this makes them to be very vulnerable to this, yet we can't do anything with "Y" list. And shouldn't actually. So it's a dead end. We have 120 players top online yet 30 of them are in conn so it's not easy to find an activity.

Continuing about the factions. Responsibility. As being said. Yes. If you're an official faction you have to pass all the odd procedures of registration just to get a pain on your poor arse and separate section on forum that people barely visit anyway. It was better to have all official faction's MDs in one section, all faction's descriptions in another one. And all the RP in comm channel. Now we have a very hairy part of the forum people barely even try to visit that makes this official faction's advantage to be void. With all MDs in one place you could go between them fast, see which faction have the most recent MD, etc. This was simply better. However it's a clear trend to see the changes being implemented just for reason of implementing something no matter it's necessary or not. GG on that. The mod is not feeling any better then 4.85 while becoming heavy out of content.

Now on overall game.

I will repeat myself and, since this reply won't change anything anyway, I won't waste a lot of words.

So in short: Delete the fucking POBs and cloaks.

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Where the end starts | Submergence | Awaken | Scarlet D(a\o)wn | Remilia wiki page
BECAUSE YOU DON'T SAY SLAUGHTER WITHOUT LAUGHTER

[Jose Benitez]

So in short: Delete the ***** POBs and cloaks.

Gets my vote of approval as a good start - not that I suspect anyone cares.

I'd also suggest that if you want the factions to have some real powers then give them back the right to determine who has their factions technology.

I've never liked the tech charts with different coloured cells that determine how effective stuff is.

You want someone else's tech then you get on the forum and RP for it, and you RP with the people that are in theory supposed to represent the NPC's of any given faction. Sure there will be the issue of Skype buddies but kind of so what? If you want something go make a new friend.

This might of course mean that you also have to go back to the ID = IFF = equipment/ship so you can tell who is "cheating" but you can't have everything in life, and the current system is as confusing as heck for new players.

There are lots of complaints about the quality of the RP in game, but I wonder how many of the players that are apparently "bad" actually come to the forum and make any RP posts.

When you start off in the game you are happy with the toys you get, as time passes you might want to develop your character more or simply want an alternate shiny new toy. If the only way you will get that is to RP on the forum then that can only be a good thing can't it? Practice makes perfect.

The RP requirements in game (and by that I mean that which you HAVE to do to play) are next to nothing and asking a trader in a couple of sentences to pull up so you can pirate him adds very little to the RP environment of the game.

Anyhow, that's my two penneth. Agree or disagree.. I really don't mind.

[Lonely_Ghost]

So in short: Delete the ***** POBs and cloaks.

If cloaks and POBs were only problems and reason, why disco got such dowgrade...

[Jinx]

because some people like to focus much on available tech/toys and their scaling - there are a few things to remember.

long explanation coming - lazy people skip it.... :

i can only assume that the desire for "harder to get" tech comes from a competitive nature where the more determined or more skilled players are rewarded with the more powerful toys. ( raid gear, mini-transaction gear, grinding gear ... popular examples are games like Everquest with their huge gap between casual gear and raid gear, most F2P games that are slightly P2W with mini transactions that usually mark down the more determined players from the casuals - and in the same category grind gear that puts the player into ... well - a grind. usually collecting some kind of currency to be exchanged for mini-transaction currency or gear... by dedicating long playtimes to a specific game )

the bad examples of such games usually have a rather poor balance when it comes to "hard to get gear" - in older games ( like everquest ) it was intended that someone with raid gear would simply have the edge over a casual gamer.

in newer games the balance is often kept a bit more even - and much of the hard-to-get gear is more cosmetical or "special" - for the lower motive of "showing off"

what all those games require to work ( again ) is a pyramid structure. - you need a large mass of players who do not or do not want to dedicate that much time / money to a game. - that sets the more dedicated players above those casual gamers. - if they had the top gear just as easily available for everyone, there d be no reason and also no WAY to be special.



now lets take a look at disco.



the balance makes it so that [for the most part] ships and gear is balanced ( yes, we have a group of players who laugh at that and call it a lie - but either way, thats what the mod is mostly about )

that means - the liberty navys' gear is not exactly better than the Xenos gear, the Zoner gear is not really worse than the corsairs, the gallic stuff can actually be countered well by in-RP inferior stuff like centuries old dunkirks etc.

also - the pinnacle of craftmanship, the battlecruisers and battleships are not exactly powerful. - they are powerful enough, but hardly inRP concerning the in-RP efford it would take to build and deploy them.

so disco has very little escalation in terms of tiers of toys. - in World of Tanks, you aspire a tier 10 or at least you aspire something nicer than a tier 1.

in disco however - there is a strange consent that players think that tier 1 is the best to show off. so there is little incentive to aspire more. as a matter of fact, when you ascend the tiers ( if you think of shipsizes = tiers ) - you ll notice that the community is a lot less forgiving and a lot less happy with you having aquired the top toys ( battleships )

same goes for hard to get equipment up to a point. PoBs, cloaks, jumps etc. they are neutered down not to matter just too much in actually winning the direct competitive game ( blue message ) - they sometimes enable to prevent becoming a blue message though - and PoBs, while possibly the hardest to get and maintain "toys" in the mod - are regarded as harmful by some.

for me the question is - are they really harmful? or are they just harmful because in a world of easy to get toys, they are the only stuff that is more similar to normal F2P games ( grinding gear )

and there we are at factions vs. non factions. - grinding is something everyone can do. you do not need status, special rights or approval. - all you need is time and dedication. - if you apply the work, you get the reward, no matter who you are. this was done intentionally - because it was agreed on that not status should determine your freedom of choice but your dedication to the game.

that is also why things like PoBs are not restricted to official factions but free for all those who have the dedication regardless of origin. - however it is a concept that causes dislike even in professional games - especially ones that were monthly payed and go free to play. - paying customers suddenly realize that someone who has not payed ANY real life money can get the same stuff.

what people need to realize is that : "when players are equal and the only thing that counts is what you put into the game ( as in time equals currency ) - then one simply has no more right to complain but just a choice to dedicate as much if not more time to get ahead of the crowd."


that is - if players want everyone to be equal. - of course there might be players who do not want that; who do want some players to be - to put it in terms of the classic "animal farm" .... more equal than others. such an attitude does not necessarily need to be negative. - but to be more equal - one has to give something back of equal value - thats where things become a bit fuzzy, cause not everyone agrees on whats given back is of equal value - or even good.




now lets get down to how the server might be if we limited stuff



if we look at official factions after they become fully established, - MANY ( not all ) those factions consist of around a dozen active members - often less. ( i am talking about factions that are around a year old )
out of the dozen - half of them can be identified by their INGAME roleplay ( if you hid their tag ) - half of them could be anyone ingame if they had no tag,

that leaves something around 5-6 players who reflect their official faction in terms of actual ingame roleplay that can be recognized.

that is not too much. there are of course factions that are different to that - thats factions that by nature must appear different ( nomads for example or wild or AI ) but i would not claim that they have - after some time significantly more active members .. on a normal non-event peak day.

so that leaves us with roughly half a dozen players who activly RP their factions - and half a dozen players who fly a tag but are otherwise fairly generic in terms of behaviour.

and those players claim the rights to decide

- who can fly anything bigger than a gunboat ( often suggested )
- "if", "why", "where" to build a PoB ( just suggested )
- who to be allowed to use PoB gear ( also just suggested )
- who to be allowed the biggest transports ( some time ago suggested )
- who to be allowed the sweetest traderoutes ( also some time ago suggested )

leaving all others in small to medium tradeships or small-ish combat ships.

what is MY opinion about it?

- yes, it will make players join factions ... for the gear.
- it will significantly increase the number of tagged players who are not really recognizable by their behaviour but only by their tag
- it will also ( i do think that opportunity causes it ) increase the number of players who do recognizably RP their faction - but the number of generic and tagged faction players would be much greater.

would it help factions? with the current activity system - yeah - most certainly. hardly any faction ( any main faction that is - not counting factions like bundschuh ) would suffer from the 30 hours or 5 minimum different player issue.

will it improve RP? - hard to say, although i am personally against such restrictions i wager that it might.

but it would also make the server even less accessible - less newbie friendly. - and then there is a strange / funny social dilemma.

the dilemma of being different / special.

if everyone is in a faction, bound by faction limitations of the hierachy - then the "special players" will search for a new "vent" to set themselves apart...

and you can be sure they ll go for "lets make special stuff for SRP only" - just to add another tier of "hard to get stuff" - or maybe it might even be a renaissance of the indie movement - when suddenly "being indie, and limiting yourself to only small and medium tradeships and smaller combat crafts is suddenly considered "amazing RP" in contrast to the RP you do in factions where all you really do is just dully follow the letter without much creativity and progression.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Jose Benitez]

I'm not sure, based on your last post Jinx, that there is an answer to rejuvenating Disco.

You are arguing for pretty much a status quo. Which is fine, except things as they are don't appear to be working to well.

What do you want the factions to do? If you want them to do anything then it must be something worthwhile that the poeple behind the characters will want to do. It should be something that involves RP and in theory shows new players "how it should be done".

All i ever seem to see in the forums are reasons why Indies should have everything they want, whenever they want it and however they want it. Thats fine for those who have good RP skills but less so for those without as they do not have to RP (which would hopefully improve their skills) to get anything.

This should not be about restricting Indies, but why would an Indie player complain if he/she has to post something on the forum to ask nicely if they can use something? If the effort to post something and RP has been made then the factions should not be permitted to say "no".

Subsequently if we want/agree that the officials have to take some responsibilty for their factions RP then an Indie not following the broad RP guidelines that the official faction has laid down should expect some consequence right up to losing the nice shiny toy they asked for.

[Jinx]

hm - not quite a status quo. - what i try to express is that what many players focus on is NOT the best idea.

---> which is toys and freedom of picking those toys

what i wrote in the OP is an attempt to look at what actually sets official factions apart - processes that are tried and tested, processes that can be expanded. - those are also concepts that non-faction members got used to.

so - to be precise - what i mean is - REVISE the faction rights - possibly write up tier 1 and tier 2 for them

tier 1 should be similar to now - but allowing the factions to apply them WITHOUT the admins. if it is impossible to give certain members exclusive console commands for like FR5 or so - then the faction RIGHTS should be simply processed by the admins but not judged on or decided about by admins.

tier 2 could then be a revised faction REQUEST exclusive for factions, too. - these ones would concern "minor" punishments ... what i have in mind are effects with greater impact that are STILL considered ... INRP ( and that is very important ) ... not sanctions! - but inRP consequences.

those could be:

- applying a non-fixable reputation adjustment (+1.0 rep for always good with, or -1.0 for always hostile to reputation )
- grounding a ship for RP purpose ( removing the engine and preventing it from undocking for a short time - like a day )
- damaging ship and equipment ( resulting in repair bills upon docking )

basicly just faction rights - just a bit harsher.



the basis of that is


the actual STRENGTH of an official faction is to "lead by example" - which is an opportunity - but also kind of a burden. but in order to do so - they do need some tools. revising the faction rights we have to be more practical and accessible is a way to go. - instead of inventing the wheel over again or creating a greater imbalance between faction players and non faction players, it would focus on their strength, not their weakness ( which is voluntarily limiting their own tools )

there is little gained by applying limitations across the board - but there are some benefits in more ingame power.

all that does require a more watchful eye to prevent abuse ... AND a change of attitude by many factions. ( especially that critizising ones actions is not just Q_Q but often justified, if situational [e.g. just cause one was killed in pvp does not make this persons claims less valid] - meaning - factions need to be more open minded and less defensive )


edit:

the other points i put in the OP are self explanatory. - the power to expand the toys ( ships, customization etc. ) and story progression. - but thats already - up to a point - in effect ( but not put into clear and transparent processes ) - factions can ask for change - and we listen to them much more than we listen to non faction players of course.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Vrabcek]

but it would also make the server even less accessible - less newbie friendly.

Freedom doesn't necessarily means better. Direct or indirect pointing out people to join factions for whatever reason could actually help the newcomers a lot more than letting them fly in a space they simply don't understand.
Its the factions what are/should help out those people to understand the server roleplay and gameplay, and especially make them stay here.

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