Gray area, need clarification

[Quigs]

I thought thrusting out of weapons range for prolonged periods of time was considered "shield running" and was deemed illegal. Anyway...

In a situation like the one in this thread, the guy who's being cheated pretty much has to accept a loss (whether by fleeing or fighting to the death) with dignity and hope the "winners" aren't big jerks about it. It's true that, since the first ape learned to swing a femur, people who've survived a losing battle have sought ways to even the score. The Supreme Court of Discovery has decided time and time again that that's not allowed here. I think trying to find ways to justify getting your revenge (right or wrong) is a hopelessly uphill battle. Take the tick in the loss column for now and even the score tomorrow.

CP

[chopper]

No, actually, it wasn't my revenge, if you were referring to me.
I even told them in system chat that I will be setting my ambush on a better place.
It's useless to fight them with Battlecruiser supplying them with bots/bats all the time.
I would gladly fight if BC attacked me - instead of farming bots/bats.
I even think he was killing Daunman NPC's as well, though not sure.
In my case - BC was there to insure that I can't win. So, I had to find another way.
I would love if they chased me to a better place for a fight, but they didn't.
They decided to stay insured near the BC. So, I was in their sensor range, and entered a Lane before them because they announced they are going towards NB JG.

In my opinion, that BHG BC helping two guys against 1 with bots/bats is really unfair, though let's say they had nothing to do with him. They still stayed near him, so they have a pile of bots/bats insured.
I really think Pirates should exactly use these methods, better then attacking New Berlin or god knows what.
Hit and run was always a good tactic. In my case - I didn't refill bots/bats, I didn't re-arm.
I just chose a better battlefield. I even announced that.

I am sorry if you guys are hurt by what I'v done, but I still don't think it was unfair from my side.
And I don't think it was against the rules.
If it was - my name is [RHA]Wilhelm.Schulz, waiting to be fined.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[A51 Kane]

i think we defined is in another thread.

thrusting away is not retreating - cruise only means retreat. - leaving the sensor range though ( 15k ) means disengaging. - so.. if you thrust away, but stay in sensor range, you have not reengaged. if you leave the scanner range, you have retreated and retreat rule apply.

entering a lane was defined as retreating in any case.

however, those rules were made to support fair play and roleplay sort of. as long as the engagement was good and everyone felt fine with it - i see no problem.

I saw this and since I've not been able to find the other thread; some ships thrust faster than others. People use this to get out of weapon range to recharge the shields then come in to re-engage. I have entered cruise numerous times in my short stay on Disco to chase down the person thrusting so I can take him/her out before those shields regen. Yeah, I'm entering cruise, but I'm not running. I'm chasing. Is this wrong? If so, that rule needs serious reconsideration as it gives a definite unrealistic advantage to the person thrusting away from the fight. EDIT: I was not in a cap ship, it is a trader. And once you gain the advantage in a trade ship you must keep that advantage or your dead.

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[chopper]

That's a bit different thing. Cap ship shouldn't be able to chase fighter at all.
That's why you shouldn't cruise to catch up. There are different opinions on that subject though.
But mine needs to be considered first! Aye!

---

It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[sovereign]

That's a bit different thing. Cap ship shouldn't be able to chase fighter at all.
That's why you shouldn't cruise to catch up. There are different opinions on that subject though.
But mine needs to be considered first! Aye!

I see no problems with what you did. By entering TL toward you, they came within sensor range again and, as long as they actually fought you, it should be fine.

I had my first experience with bat farming today when I was beating up a Rheinland Military bomber- it sucks. Then again, it was HIM doing it to all of MY NPCs that were swarming him, so I don't consider it bad form. However, I wish he had disengaged the NPCs earlier, because after he did we had a much better fight. Which I won, :yahoo:hooray for Odin armed with vanilla equipment!

Anyway, in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with farming NPCs that are actually hostile to you and attacking you, just try to move fight out of their patrol groups... however, if the BHG BC was engaging Daumann and the RM were just peachy with it? Pah, that screams OORP. RM should have told BHG to leave on pain of death, and possibly given him a little 'nudge' in the right direction (here, nudge = torp).

You did nothing worse than what they did.

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[Snapp]

I agree. Docking at a base, with a tradelane, or a JG/JH, or engaging cruise engines is a retreat. Thrusting off in one direction is not fleeing unless you leave scanner range.

I was accused of "retreating" once in my rheinland bomber vs a cruiser. At the begining of the fight i landed a couple SN shots and started taking fire. So I thrusted out to 3-4k in open space to avoid the turret fire. I wasnt disengaging, just circling at 3-4k waiting for my cruiser support to arrive and draw his fire. Yet the moment my cruiser support got within 5k the ship in question immediately began blabbing oorp in system chat about rules and disengaging.

About the batt/bott leeching, can't say ive killed npc's specifically to get the batts/botts. But if they are floating in space, and i need em, you better believe im gonna tractor em. And i would bet allmost anyone else would too. But leeching batts and botts, if they are floating there and a person needs them, i cant imagine people NOT using that advantage if it's there. "Farming" is oorp no matter how you look at in my opinion, unless your a Farmer. Or the notorius "Harvester's". Heh.

(Example: I'm flying through nomad systems one day and in the system where the dyson airlock is where ya have to knock out the big ball like generators. There sits a battleship, killing nomads by the hundreds, thousands even, had been there so long he was entirely surrounded by a white cloud of batts/botts so thick you allmost couldnt see his ship. The game was even hanging up because there were so many on screen.)

If you stop the Farming you stop the majority of the Leeching and maybe even some lag. In my opinion.

Edit: Just curious and wanted to add. Have the admins or server operators considered RP Police or Server Rule Enforcers? They are VERY oorp to have flying around, but it seems lately they might be needed. Even if just on a "trial" basis. Just a thought.

[Jinx]

in your specific case, chopper - the main question is:

has the combat ended between the two engagements? or was it just moved to another place while staying one and the same combat.

in a stricter sense - the combat ends, when someone :

- enters a JH/JG, tradelane, docks or cruises

in a wider sense, - these rules are made against shield running, which you haven t done in your case. - you have moved the battlefield to a place that favoured your odds a little more than a warship permashooting NPCs for bats bots ( which is not wrong from the BHG, - but unsportive if he was aware of the situation )

so - if the battle was still the same, there was no re-engagement and no problem with the rules. - if the battle ended ( and that is a very subjective thing based on what each individual thinks ) then there has been a re-engagement violation.

mind you, a rule violation is only a violation if someone feels it important enough to actually make it a violation report. many violations in favour of a balanced battle or fluid RP are not and should not be reported ( nor should the participating people feel the urge to do so ) - only when one player feels that he is in a direct disadvantage due to a violation of the rules - there can / should be a report - and, only if it is detrimental to what "feels right". ( i dislike the term common sense, its so worn out )

in your case, i think it feels "right" still, - but if one of the opponents was someone that "likes" to point you to the rules, - you would have been considered retreating and had to leave the zone for 4 hours regarding to the rules. - it would have been up to you to avoid contact and go straight for the exit of the zone. - but it would have hurt the RP more than it helped, i guess. - a very subjective case.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[AdamantineFist]

I definitely agree with Jinx here, and I don't think what you did was wrong. Even if it's true you fled, it seems to me that the RM was chasing you, so you had every right to re-engage. Also, you were at an extreme disadvantage before. I mean, outnumbered, and with a BATTLECRUISER against you? Seems like you did exactly what any pirate should have done in that situation, and that would be to bring the fight onto more advantageous terms for yourself. Completely in RP in my opinion, and I, personally, would not report you had I been in their position (if what you were doing was against the rules).

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[Othman]

Alright. I was on my RHA character. Met 2 [RM] in O-15. One of them was setting up, so I decided not to attack them first.
I jumped back to Dresden and was fighting some NPC's, and RM guys jumped and engaged. Alright.
So, we fought and fought. BHG BC comes over, and he starts farming dozens of NPC's around.
RM bomber re-filled his entire bots like 3 times. That means around 300 bots.. I scanned him, and he had full bots/bats again.
So, I decided it's pointless to fight near that BC, and thrusted off a bit. They didn't follow in that exact moment.
I stayed on some 8-10k distance from them when I heard they are going for NB. Alright, they started closing to me - so I entered a lane, and after that another lane.
I hacked the lane there when they came - and attacked them, this time without a BC around.
I didn't loose any bots/bats in the first part of the battle, and I didn't dock anywhere (how could I?) to refill my ammo.
I also never started my cruise engines to run away.
If it was a system with no trade lanes, I would stay in those 8-10k at all times, waiting for BC to go away.
But this way, I had to go in front of them if I wanted to disrupt the lanes.

So, practically, I just changed the position of the fight, because I was outnumbered and outgunned there.
It's called tactics. Now, did I break the rule of re-engagement? I was accused for that, yes, but I'm not convinced.
I didn't do anything worse then that BC refilling Bomber's bots.
In my mind - I only used strategy to have a chance of beating them.
If I did break the rules, admins can use this as my confession, and fine me with appropriate fine.

All comments are welcome. Thanks.

While the 'so called' tactics sound quite reasonable to me, a guerilla fighter, the ironic point was that both ships needed to complete their setups and the rules, sadly but truly dictates that after disengaging from an occured contact, and getting out of scanner range means that the so called contact is over in which sides should not take part in again. You were completely out of range and I told you on system comms as 'call it a day hessian'. Your answer was, 'Why would I? I will try to ambush you somewhere else where you don't have a BHC near.' Now, its not my fault if a cruiser came in and aided my partner with bots and bats. He could have shot you either, but he didnt as I think you were not that unfortunate to whine about a cruiser's existence there. I made it clear that we were returning back to Berlin and thats why I used the jump gate instead of the jump hole. But you just camped in the same system via the jump hole, intercepted our new recruit with dropping him off the lane, who you had been a part of contact with in the previous 2-3 minutes period and engaged him without a word. This is called re-engaging and not a gray area or something else. You would have a point if we went on chasing you after the first contact but we didn't. So it was over, completely, both sides went to their own business as you departed into the asteroids and we headed to the lanes, you were out of sight. Best thing to do was either leaving the system or meddling with another business, not blatantly re-engaging and interpreting the rules according to your good. And better keep in mind that, you don't actually have to cruise to be considered as departing from a fight. If you are out of sight and not being chased, its over.

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On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.

[chopper]

While the 'so called' tactics sound quite reasonable to me, a guerilla fighter, the ironic point was that both ships needed to complete their setups

As I said before, I had no intentions to attack you, due to your 'setting up'.
When you jumped to Dresden, I tried to RP something with you, but you just wrote 'Attack the Hessian' and you both attacked.
Actually, it was fighting only you in the start - so I targeted you - because I thought that guy wasn't ready for a fight.
But then he came back and engaged me as well, so I switched target.
I was pretty much fair in that situation, and I respected his 'setting up'. If he didn't engage, we would have fought 1vs1 I guess.
So, please don't use 'we were still setting up' excuse, because you were the ones who engaged me.

and getting out of scanner range means that the so called contact is over in which sides should not take part in again.

You were in my scanner range at all times, until I entered a Lane.
You might have lost me, due to that cloud thingy - I have no idea.
But I had you on my scanners on 8-10k range all the time.
The only thing that I did differently was to enter a lane in front of you, instead of waiting for you and docking on it in the same time as you do, so i stay in your radar range.
But then you would reach the JG, which didn't match my goals.

So it was over, completely, both sides went to their own business as you departed into the asteroids and we headed to the lanes,

I actually headed to the lanes as well, as I came there first.

And better keep in mind that, you don't actually have to cruise to be considered as departing from a fight. If you are out of sight and not being chased, its over.

I agree. But I left your scanner range only when I entered a lane, and I even told you that I will be waiting 'somewhere else'.

Again, my apologize if I'v got it all wrong - I just thought it's a normal thing for a Pirate to choose a more fitting ground for fight.
It's totally dumb to fight against 2 guys, hurting one really hard but being unable to kill him, since he has zillion bots.
In that situation I had no other choice but to try and fight you somewhere else.

Technically I guess I did break the rules, but if that is the case I think it's a really OORP rule - and not even a 'gameplay' rule, like shield running rule is.
Why? Because I didn't do anything unfair. I just fought you on another place, few minutes later. I didn't gain anything with my 'running', except one 'passive helper' less who shouldn't even be there if he's not gonna shoot me to fulfill some non existent bounty.

My apology once again - I thought you will understand my situation.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del