Salvager and Raba regen counts: too high?

[R.I.P.]

I still say this whole thread was started cause someone lost a fight , or a Salvager managed to escape them. Then they cry about a ship needing nerfed cause it is too powerful. GET OVER IT.

[Knjaz]

Meh from one side the things have too many regens but this is not its problem.
It should keep the regens and it should loose some cargo instead. If both are around 2000 units like P-Transp no sane powertrader would use them.

If you reduce its cargo you fix 2 problems at the time. First the pure traders would take other ships that have more cargo but are more easy to kill and second due to the first problem there would be more true unlawful players using both ships on purpose.

Can't really put Salvager and P-Trans on same level. You can't go into solo-piracy without a CD. You can't even kill anyone and anything in solo without a CD, unless you ohko them.
Powertrading with a 3.3 transport (assuming shields, armor, guns etc) is a fail, imho.

All transports are OP after the unreasonable thrust speed buffs. I proved it mathematically before it was implemented but one cannot argue and use logic and reason with the current dev balance team.

It is kinda pointless, their incompetence and ignorance of basic gameplay balance is beyond borders.

The results? Simple from 200/200 server to 20/200 server.

No s***.

One question though, for the seemingly uninformed person like me - were there any crucial changes to battletransport/liner class in general in last year +, that suddenly made salvager rather OP? I just don't remember topics like that in 2011/12/ early 13. (pre 87).

Is it only about thrusting speed? Just wondering what happened that made people look towards this thing.
(Unless it's yet another "I can't solo it in a bomber until it reaches base." Plus it's not even a B-Transport, it's a Frigate.)

[Lythrilux]

I still say this whole thread was started cause someone lost a fight , or a Salvager managed to escape them. Then they cry about a ship needing nerfed cause it is too powerful. GET OVER IT.

Yes, I find it needlessly difficult to catch or kill salvagers.
But I also find it too easy to run away from things in my own salvagers. Killing things is easier than it should be also.
And I can't remember the last time I died in my salvager against single transports and bombers (or even two bombers) as well as gunboats (however gunboats are quite the struggle, thankfully my unnecessarily increased thrust speed gives me the advantage, taking them on in a fight would be madness, however running from them is an option) :}
Please approach this topic with better structured arguments and less extremely heavy bias please. Same can be said for more than one of the posters in this thread.

---

[WesternPeregrine]

It seems this conversation has been turning to a Salvager only conversation, so I wonder if the Raba should still be considered in this discussion.

Speaking of it, the other day I involved myself in a fight with a single waran bomber. Could be the simple CAU V, or the basic gunboat guns, but the Raba wasn't overpowering. Admittedly, it took him a while to blow the transport up, but is the job of the Raba, to be a though transport.

Certainly not an alternative to a pirate transport, most definitely not an armored mining ship, as the Salvager can be.

---

SIGNATURE

Kusari Former Mastermind

========================

| The Kusari Legal Codex |
| Character Profiles | The North Star Bulletin News|

[Corile]

She must have a good defence capabilities! It's universal all-around good stuff in a staight hands.. By the way, two xenos bombers, for example, can blow it to dust with 5 minutes... So i don't think that's ship imbalanced.

5 minutes is like, 3 minutes too many for two bombers to blow up a ship.

Salvager fat and easy taget for bombers novas and snac's.

Nope. Novas won't work because they're too quick (Novas rarely work on anything anyway, because everything gunboat-down is too fast and everything cruiser-up has flaks). SNACs don't work well either because of Sally's incredibly flat profile that makes it really difficult to hit with proper positioning.

Hackers -small group with limited influence

Lmfao.

if you want to take out convoy.. so don't cry here about imbalance, just use a correct ship for this. or group of ships

I once found a convoy of three ptrains and one salvager. I found them near Cali sun, about 70K away from Alcatraz. I managed to take out only two ptrains before they reached Alcatraz because the sally was feeding them (only two ptrains over the distance of 70K, zero SNACs missed, everyone was cd'ed). It's not even just a transport and a gunboat in one, it's also a goddamn repair ship.

I still say this whole thread was started cause someone lost a fight , or a Salvager managed to escape them. Then they cry about a ship needing nerfed cause it is too powerful. GET OVER IT.

One salvager is a very small problem because if you catch it off guard (say, near Chisos) it has nowhere to run. But two of them can easily run away for literally two systems.

One question though, for the seemingly uninformed person like me - were there any crucial changes to battletransport/liner class in general in last year +, that suddenly made salvager rather OP? I just don't remember topics like that in 2011/12/ early 13. (pre 87).

I suppose it wasn't a big problem until Cardie and Pscrap got buffs and Texas -> alpha got to be the biggest solo powertrade route of all times.

And I can't remember the last time I died in my salvager against single transports and bombers (or even two bombers) as well as gunboats (however gunboats are quite the struggle, thankfully my unnecessarily increased thrust speed gives me the advantage, taking them on in a fight would be madness, however running from them is an option) :}

I couldn't even kill one sally in a Battlecruiser, let alone a gunboat.

@up
I suppose Raba is not that big of a problem because of the things you mentioned in the last paragraph.

---

Reflections on the Revolution in Gallia
Custodi // High City of Heraklion // The Cult of Archangels
Log Filter // Post Creator // Manhattan

[SnakThree]

Raba is not even a mining ship nor popular due to Kusari origins. Salvager is mining medium transport with Gunboat weapons and cruiser repair capabilities. It's just too much in one ship.

---

[Lythrilux]

Not to mention Raba isn't flown by those that have a diplomacy that is engineered in such a way that they can dock virtually everywhere in any system.

---

[Fluffyball]

Can't really put Salvager and P-Trans on same level. You can't go into solo-piracy without a CD. You can't even kill anyone and anything in solo without a CD, unless you ohko them.

I agree on this one. I had a bomber, but forgot about the CD ammo. As a result, I have been chasing heavy transport through five (!) systems and failed miserably in shooting it down (dealing only 20% damage through as a last chance, while transport was cruising).

Piracy, solo piracy, without CD is IMPOSSIBLE.

---

User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=138636
Time left: (Permanent)

[Corile]

Thanks, captain.

---

Reflections on the Revolution in Gallia
Custodi // High City of Heraklion // The Cult of Archangels
Log Filter // Post Creator // Manhattan

[Lythrilux]

So I got dev input.

[18/10/2014 16:27:00] Lythrilux: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=120885
Any chance we could get some balance dev input? (cat)
[22/10/2014 21:51:56] aerelm: no
[22/10/2014 21:52:11] Lythrilux: why
[22/10/2014 22:08:01] aerelm: cause its a flawed argument based on one single isolated fact while disregarding everything else about those ships
[22/10/2014 22:08:07] aerelm: aerelm shrugs
[22/10/2014 22:09:55] Lythrilux: flawed argument? how so?
[22/10/2014 22:10:12] Lythrilux: I've tested shooting, as well as surviving in a salvager in quite a few ways
[22/10/2014 22:10:23] Lythrilux: Karst has even produced data that shows it's OPness in number forms
[22/10/2014 22:10:39] aerelm: yea went through this with Karst already
[22/10/2014 22:10:58] aerelm: his standpoint is same as yours, considerin nothin but hullpoints and regens
[22/10/2014 22:11:19] aerelm: [22 October 2014 21:50] aerelm:

<<< Salvager is nearly three times as large as regular transports of the same cargo size, has nearly only half the agility, and on top of that it offers one rather huge profile which makes it nearly impossible to miss. Toss having no CD into that mix and using the very same logic you're using to call it OP, you can simply change your POV and call it miserably UP.
[22/10/2014 22:11:32] Lythrilux: I'm not just considering those though
[22/10/2014 22:11:43] Lythrilux: I'm flying/shooting a ship that can mount gunboat turrets
[22/10/2014 22:11:53] Lythrilux: and has 160 M/S thrust
[22/10/2014 22:11:56] aerelm: [22 October 2014 21:57] aerelm:

<<< Is Salvager a pretty decent ship? Yes.
Is it as insanely OP as Lyth, and now you, has been trying to make it look like by isolating a couple of facts about it and ignore everything else? No.
Does it need a nerf? Unlikely, cause while a limited number of people are buggin me about it bein OP, another limited number of people are actually buggin me to buff it, and rest of the community doesn't seem to mind it.
so it'd be safe to assume its merely a matter of opinion, and has nothing to do with how the ship actually works ingame but rather how each individual expects it to
[22/10/2014 22:13:30] aerelm: just because your indie pirate recently had a hard time dealing with a couple of salvagers which hurt your ego doesnt mean the ship needs a nerf
[22/10/2014 22:13:36] aerelm: aerelm shrugs
[22/10/2014 22:13:43] Lythrilux: I've been flying them myself and evading danger with relative ease
[22/10/2014 22:13:50] Lythrilux: as I had stated many times within that thread
[22/10/2014 22:14:18] Lythrilux: Like, I own something like 6 lol
[22/10/2014 22:14:29] Lythrilux: I've looked at the ship from every single angle
[22/10/2014 22:14:34] Lythrilux: and, in conclusion, it's OP
[22/10/2014 22:19:37] Lythrilux: Size with the salvager is kind of irrelevant becauase it's good turrets, hull, armour and powercore can still guarantee an easy escape from an opponent. Someone with a brain who knows how to tank advantage of it's arcs can easy kill snubs and transports. I guess Gunboats are within the realm of possibility however it's pretty difficult given the bad shield.
Honestly it's agility has never bugged me so much. It's never stood out as a downside that balances it out the ship. And, as stated above, agility is kind of irrelevant if the ship can easily survive and reach a place to dock with it's current stats.
And how does not having a CD factor into it's survivability? Sure, the ship can't keep on it's prey, but if it can make it run off that's pretty much a victory.
[22/10/2014 22:22:06] Lythrilux: I don't think we can dictate that it should be left untouched because 'the community doesn't seem to mind it' is a bad way to approach things. Or at least you've worded that pretty vaguely so I might not fully understand what you mean.
[22/10/2014 22:24:54] Lythrilux: The ships survivability really shines when it has a stupendous amount of places to run to due to the generous Junker diplomacy. On that note, a reason why there's limited data on salvager survivability is because Junkers don't have that many enemies. Often, salvagers aren't going to come under fire from another ship.
And of course, if you've got a toy that's OP you're less likely to suggest that it might need balancing. Hence why there might be less actual comments on the ships survivability being to high from that perspective
[22/10/2014 22:25:28] aerelm: [22 October 2014 22:14] Lythrilux:

<<< I've looked at the ship from every single angle
and, in conclusion, it's OP
[22 October 2014 22:19] Lythrilux:

<<< Size with the salvager is kind of irrelevant
[22/10/2014 22:25:31] Lythrilux: I invite you to make a salvager yourself and see how easy it is to run away from things. I also invite you to make a ship to shoot at a few of them, so that you can see their high survivability
[22/10/2014 22:25:32] aerelm: ok
[22/10/2014 22:26:07] aerelm: since that's such a solid logic you've got there, I'll just c/p big dragon stats to raba and percheron stats to salvager for the next update
[22/10/2014 22:29:14] Lythrilux: I mean that, relative to itself and it's other stats, it's size does not compenstate enough nor balance it out
[22/10/2014 22:31:52] Lythrilux: because, of course, the other stats for the BD and the Percheron are completely different and are generally much more balanced relative to their own sizes, and to whatever's shooting at them.

I still highly disagree with his viewpoint.

---