Salvager and Raba regen counts: too high?

[t0l]

Hmm.

NOT ALL SALVAGER PILOTS USE SOLARIS AND HAU IV.

I have seen a ton of them using AU VIII and Charon or some other slow gun. Also, it's actually not that hard to kill with a bomber or something.

Irrelevant.
"Not all Ranseur pilots remember to buy regens. We should buff the Ranseur because some people fly them without bots and bats!"
Ships are balanced according to their potential, not the way some people use them.

You can kill it with a Pirate Transport.

No kidding. Point is, you could kill any other transport faster than a Salvager, with a Ptrans.

Well, thing is, it will still put out less DPS if attacked by something bigger.

And even if there is potential, it seems like none when nobody acknowledges it by using 1 set of specific guns.

I have a Solaris Salvager.

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[SnakThree]

Talking in effective hull points and thrust speed, Salvager outclasses every other medium transports or battletransports. Irrelevant to guns mounted.

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[Badperson]

Then give it liner thrust speed and fatten it.

[Karst]

For reference:

Salvager with 139 thrust speed - 10 175

So with liner thrust speed, it would be less durable than a Renzu but still more durable than any other transport or liner.
Though that's not the best way to deal with it in my opinion.

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[AceofSpades]

This is a ridiculous argument, both sides are right!
Three points to consider while considering, followed by reasonable solutions to be discussed:


1. The concept that pirating alone should be a consistently successful venture is disturbingly pedestrian. Standing 'by the side of the road with a gun' and mugging whomever comes by should only work by chance, and anyone who is decently prepared or has a little luck poses the potential for escape. Running unprepared into a Salvager/Raba while pirating alone is akin to holding up a car and finding the driver with body armor and a shotgun.

Which is exactly how pirating should be.. A lone wolf doesn't share the take, but shouldn't expect to feast on lamb every time, and recognizes that a duo (or team) has always been far more effective for hunting.
Those making an argument here for why a sole bomber should be able to consistently outmatch the 'frigate transport' are misunderstanding the purpose of such a ship [why else do you think people are willing to forego 40% maximum cargo] -- the Salvager/Raba is for Pilots who prefer to earn less in order to deter lazy pirates and make others 'earn it more'.

2. That being said, the Salvager/Raba certainly provides a unique (and perhaps the most terrifying) risk to a Pirate. A ship with the capability to out-punch someone via pure strength, armor and firepower, is its calling card. Removing this personality will neuter the ship into just another nerfed and now regular transport. Leaving it in an overpowered state would mean it can outright bully Pirates.

3. Every ship however needs to have weaknesses.. so besides a limiting cargo requirement, what sort of other issues might a Salvager/Raba have that wont take away from its personality? Most importantly for this sort of unique brawler transport, what sort of deficiencies could guarantee that it is taken down or unable to escape in the event that does find itself outmatched?
Agility.. Speed.. Powercore.. Mountable Equipment.. Operational Capacity

-Removing the CM might be ... harsh. Yet, why not discuss the possibility a true 'tank'. A cloaking Sal/Raba makes less sense in-RP then most ships would, and if ye Remove the ability to flee it could be made a true beefcake.
-Increasing cruise charge-time, or reducing maneuvering, are both viable methods to Reducing ability to flee
-Dampening the powercore of such ships to 200.000 or 300.000 would Limit streaming firepower but still allow for burst damage
-Increasing the ships physical size would reduce the difficulty in hitting said armored target and Limit enduring survivability
-Ensure that the Sal/Raba must decide between fight or flight by editing firing arcs away from the rear would Reduce the effectiveness of a TS/flee strategy



Said examples would be interesting ways to handicap the Sal/Raba without simply nerfing them to be similar to everything else.
The thought of simply reducing its bots/bats/armor is just too blatantly unimaginative to witness as the solution for our server.
I realize activity is lower, but if we are solving balance for a 'lone-wolf' Pirate then we are again enabling non-cooperative behaviour.
If you want to guarantee ya obliterate the baddest Transport 100% of the time then bring a friend, a nuke, or your A-game ^^

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[5:57:11 PM] InfernalTater (Lewis) [Formerly TLI-Inferno]:meanwhile, Aces 'I don't always miss my destinations, but when I do, I'm on the other side of house space.'

Seriously nerf Junkers.

Shoot to Thrill

[WesternPeregrine]

I have a recent example for the folks to consider about the Raba, this time as trully a hardened transport.

So I was in Okinawa, Kamakura Base, when I was intercepted by a GMG bomber. At about 10km out heading to the Honshu jh (not the jumpgate), a second bomber of the GMG shows up, and after a while they start the assault on the ship.

I was on my Raba with CAU V and basic gb turrets and a pulse, like I mentioned before. GMG was using their own bombers, loaded with snacs and novas.

To the Honshu jumphole, the torps blew up 6 of 8 of my guns, and the truster, while I retained about 100 regens by this time, and full hull.

I managed to pass the jh and gain some distance (about 5km) due to the npcs delaying them. Managed to only be intercepted again very near Akita border station in Honshu, where I decided to old out for reinforcements and blow up rather than docking and paying a heavy repair bill.

Perhaps the GMG fellas can provide a better picture of the event, but the thing is, that Raba managed to hold out for a good while even with a rather early loss of the truster. The good quality of the attackers meant that the ship couldn't be much of a threat to them, other than putting the shields of them low some times.

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SIGNATURE

Kusari Former Mastermind

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[Lythrilux]

1. The concept that pirating alone should be a consistently successful venture is disturbingly pedestrian. Standing 'by the side of the road with a gun' and mugging whomever comes by should only work by chance, and anyone who is decently prepared or has a little luck poses the potential for escape. Running unprepared into a Salvager/Raba while pirating alone is akin to holding up a car and finding the driver with body armor and a shotgun.

Which is exactly how pirating should be.. A lone wolf doesn't share the take, but shouldn't expect to feast on lamb every time, and recognizes that a duo (or team) has always been far more effective for hunting.
Those making an argument here for why a sole bomber should be able to consistently outmatch the 'frigate transport' are misunderstanding the purpose of such a ship [why else do you think people are willing to forego 40% maximum cargo] -- the Salvager/Raba is for Pilots who prefer to earn less in order to deter lazy pirates and make others 'earn it more'.

Traders can trade alone. Why can't pirates pirate alone?
Fair enough if people want to choose survivability over cargo, but the trade offs right now are ridiculous. As Karst clearly points out, the survivability is too damn high. Salvagers right now are a trader easy mode.

2. That being said, the Salvager/Raba certainly provides a unique (and perhaps the most terrifying) risk to a Pirate. A ship with the capability to out-punch someone via pure strength, armor and firepower, is its calling card. Removing this personality will neuter the ship into just another nerfed and now regular transport. Leaving it in an overpowered state would mean it can outright bully Pirates.

The ship can still be completely competent without being in the OP state it's in now. And, as you describe, it shouldn't be able to easily fight absolutely everything it goes up agaisnt off. Like I said, the Salvager is easy mode.

3. Every ship however needs to have weaknesses.. so besides a limiting cargo requirement, what sort of other issues might a Salvager/Raba have that wont take away from its personality? Most importantly for this sort of unique brawler transport, what sort of deficiencies could guarantee that it is taken down or unable to escape in the event that does find itself outmatched?

The regens.

Agility.. Speed.. Powercore.. Mountable Equipment.. Operational Capacity

None of those will directly address the issue at hand. Powercore maybe. Mountable equipment maybe if you just remove it's guns and turn it into a zoner whale-esque ship.

-Removing the CM might be ... harsh. Yet, why not discuss the possibility a true 'tank'. A cloaking Sal/Raba makes less sense in-RP then most ships would, and if ye Remove the ability to flee it could be made a true beefcake.
-Increasing cruise charge-time, or reducing maneuvering, are both viable methods to Reducing ability to flee
-Dampening the powercore of such ships to 200.000 or 300.000 would Limit streaming firepower but still allow for burst damage
-Increasing the ships physical size would reduce the difficulty in hitting said armored target and Limit enduring survivability
-Ensure that the Sal/Raba must decide between fight or flight by editing firing arcs away from the rear would Reduce the effectiveness of a TS/flee strategy



Said examples would be interesting ways to handicap the Sal/Raba without simply nerfing them to be similar to everything else.
The thought of simply reducing its bots/bats/armor is just too blatantly unimaginative to witness as the solution for our server.
I realize activity is lower, but if we are solving balance for a 'lone-wolf' Pirate then we are again enabling non-cooperative behaviour.
If you want to guarantee ya obliterate the baddest Transport 100% of the time then bring a friend, a nuke, or your A-game ^^

Those ideas aren't bad, however I'll return to my previous statement about lone-pirates. Secondly, Karst's data is irrefutable.

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[WesternPeregrine]

Perhaps there should be some tough traders who could in theory deal alone with one pirate. Kinda promotes pirate groups to operate in groups, instead of lone wolves.
On the other hand, there would be a vessel where a pirate could "pirate alone". A gunboat fits the bill perhaps.

That way traders could get 4 options instead of 3. Corporate 5kers for maximum cargo, freighters for maximum speed, armored transports (needed to buff up the civilian ones to this level) for maximum survivability alone, or normal ones for freelancer/zoner range of markets.

On the other side, pirates would have to choose between a gunboat and be able to kill all, a transport and have good chances + cargo piracy, or get a friend and field a bomber/fighter groups for versatile piracy.

Not this "my bomber should block this whole system on it's own, take on any ship that is not a able fighter or has capital shields." thing.

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SIGNATURE

Kusari Former Mastermind

========================

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[Derkylos]

I have a recent example for the folks to consider about the Raba, this time as trully a hardened transport.

-snip-

As one of the GMG pilots in this encounter... (I think), I didn't really feel like you were dying slower or faster than any other transport would with a similar armour upgrade.

Granted, it took ages, but I find it takes ages to kill things on my Rogue Barghest no matter what I run into... (I rarely get kills unless the enemy doesn't have/use regens...)

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[AceofSpades]

I said a lone pirate shouldn't have a guaranteed meal.. Traders trade alone at great risk as well. Most trading vessels cannot defend themselves very well one-on-one.
The Salvager/Raba is a rare choice to forego 40% cargo capacity, and to have no choice but a Junker alignment, in exchange for a hardened fireboat.


You kill regens you dampen the purpose of the ship, instead of accentuating the weaknesses. Statistics aside--as it's supposed to be a unique ship anyways--i'm pointing out that if you aren't creative about solving the problem it will just become another carbon copy heavy transport.

Regen nerf is lazy imo. It's a "Frigate". Make it the heaviest, hardiest, rock-like rock-mining vessel around. Killing the CM was an ambitious idea, perhaps another way to limit versatility? i would rather see unique concepts presented then a normalcy-nerf.

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[5:57:11 PM] InfernalTater (Lewis) [Formerly TLI-Inferno]:meanwhile, Aces 'I don't always miss my destinations, but when I do, I'm on the other side of house space.'

Seriously nerf Junkers.

Shoot to Thrill