Salvager and Raba regen counts: too high?

[Dane Summers]

Traders can trade alone. Why can't pirates pirate alone?

They cannot. Traders can only trade alone if there is no one to stop them. The moment a transport, for instance a 5k, runs up against it pirate, it dies. Only in isolated circumstances is this not the case.

As I said in my first post - your not arguing for balance, you are arguing for trade ships to be weaker so that the Pirate has the advantage, which they always do anyway.

You and Karst could benefit from reading the same thread we've had for ages instead of making more, wasting everyones time.

---

[R.I.P.]

Traders can trade alone. Why can't pirates pirate alone?

They cannot. Traders can only trade alone if there is no one to stop them. The moment a transport, for instance a 5k, runs up against it pirate, it dies. Only in isolated circumstances is this not the case.

As I said in my first post - your not arguing for balance, you are arguing for trade ships to be weaker so that the Pirate has the advantage, which they always do anyway.

You and Karst could benefit from reading the same thread we've had for ages instead of making more, wasting everyones time.

+1

I agree with some of what was said about pirating alone, I am harder to kill in my serenity than i am in a salvager, and it has less regens. The salvager is not super fast and a good pilot with novas and a snac can tear it up, yes it may take a while but some of you seem to feel a pirate encounter the pirate should always have the upper hand and should pretty much insta-kill any transport with little or no effort. If a Salvager is too hard for you to pirate then do not mess with someone flying one. I feel some of you pirating are getting too lazy, you cannot get along with someone long enough to team up so you have to fly alone i guess. You expect to sit in one spot and have traders fly right up, make a demand and pew pew it is done in seconds. I used to be able to hold my own in some transports after i invested in armor, now it is not the case since most transports are "easy" targets for the lone pirate in the bomber. Who is going to want to run around and trade much when they know sure death is waiting. This is exactly what cause some people to avoid trade lanes all together because it is not so easy to find escorts any more with such low activity, but that does not mean transports should be turned into easy kill targets for pirates. My advice stop crying for nerfs, go practice and get better or quit piracy if you cannot handle running like the big dogs.

[Lythrilux]

The Salvager/Raba is a rare choice to forego 40% cargo capacity, and to have no choice but a Junker alignment, in exchange for a hardened fireboat.

You see, this is one of the key reason why I don't think Junkers really need such a hardened ship at all. Well, I do like the ship itself and its design, but when you look at Junker diplomacy you're found scratching your head as to why Junkers need such a powerful ship in the first place.
Scrap Zoners.
Junker diplomacy itself is a useful tool for worming out of bad situations, and calling for help when needed. There's be loads of time when I've gotten out of piracy encounters just by threatening with an FR5

You kill regens you dampen the purpose of the ship, instead of accentuating the weaknesses. Statistics aside--as it's supposed to be a unique ship anyways--i'm pointing out that if you aren't creative about solving the problem it will just become another carbon copy heavy transport.

So what? Are you implying the salvager is meant to be some sort of glorified repair ship?
I'd chuckle at your statement regarding the salvager becoming useless without such a high amount of regens. I find the Salvager to be a useful miner, or as support in piracy. Trading would still be the same as it is now, minus the fact that you're not near-invincible unlike before.

Regen nerf is lazy imo. It's a "Frigate". Make it the heaviest, hardiest, rock-like rock-mining vessel around. Killing the CM was an ambitious idea, perhaps another way to limit versatility? i would rather see unique concepts presented then a normalcy-nerf.

As long as it can virtually travel in a straight line from x to y and repair all it's damage thanks to regens within 20k or so, then all other nerfs are pointless and will not address the issue. In fact, removing the CM or altering it's other stats just makes it more pointless for other ventures, such as piracy.

Traders can trade alone. Why can't pirates pirate alone?

They cannot. Traders can only trade alone if there is no one to stop them. The moment a transport, for instance a 5k, runs up against it pirate, it dies. Only in isolated circumstances is this not the case.

How is that a counter argument to what I have said? It just sounds like a simple explanation of encounters.

As I said in my first post - your not arguing for balance, you are arguing for trade ships to be weaker so that the Pirate has the advantage, which they always do anyway.

I am completely arguing for balance - encounters between the two should not be immensely one-sided so that the pirate has little to no chance of being able to kill the salvager before it docks at a station.
And, in order to achieve balance, the trade ship may need to be weakened.

You and Karst could benefit from reading the same thread we've had for ages instead of making more, wasting everyones time.

Same thread? Wut? This is the only one there's been for a while now.
Though, Karst has been bringing up the problems of trade ships in general on different threads, which is only loosely related to this.

+1

I agree with some of what was said about pirating alone, I am harder to kill in my serenity than i am in a salvager, and it has less regens.

Not sure what you're on when making that argument.
When broken down with numbers, there is irrefutable evidence to show that the Salvager has far greater survivability than the Serenity.

The salvager is not super fast and a good pilot with novas and a snac can tear it up,

Provided two variables are met, that is true:
1. The Salvager pilot decides to face the bomber, rather than running to the nearest station
2. The Salvager pilot isn't competent at all
3. The Bomber is a heavy bomber.
4. The Salvager isn't using Solaris, or chain firing prims.

Provided those are met, your statement may be true. Otherwise, it is not.

yes it may take a while

In accordance with variable 1, that statement stands true. But if the salvager runs? Hah, good luck killing it.

but some of you seem to feel a pirate encounter the pirate should always have the upper hand and should pretty much insta-kill any transport with little or no effort.

That isn't what we're arguing at all. If you actually read across the posts, rather than whining that you're holy collection of transports are at risk, you may see more sense across this argument. Regens need to be taken away from it so that killing it is taken from the realm of near-impossibility and into the realm of possibility. And if you're actually competent you'll be able to fend off the pirate regardless of what regens you have.

If a Salvager is too hard for you to pirate then do not mess with someone flying one.

"I fly an unpiratable ship so that I can power trade in peace!!!!"
Which is exactly the problem. Salvager is just a lazy shortcut to invincibility. Junkers already have impressive diplomacy to ensure that they can survive, but giving them an invincible transport is unecessary.

I feel some of you pirating are getting too lazy, you cannot get along with someone long enough to team up so you have to fly alone i guess. You expect to sit in one spot and have traders fly right up, make a demand and pew pew it is done in seconds.

And I feel like you Junker traders are getting lazy. Expecting to be able to easily powertrade across Sirius in your near-invincible transport and generous diplomacy without ever having to face an encounter in which you may (believe it or not!) actually die.

I used to be able to hold my own in some transports after i invested in armor, now it is not the case since most transports are "easy" targets for the lone pirate in the bomber. Who is going to want to run around and trade much when they know sure death is waiting. This is exactly what cause some people to avoid trade lanes all together because it is not so easy to find escorts any more with such low activity,

Oh please stop being so melodramatic. And transports are not easy targets for bombers anymore. The times have changed. And really, piracy balance is very messed up and in the favour of traders due to stat and equipment changes over the past few updates. That's an issue for another thread so, so I won't bother arguing about it.

but that does not mean transports should be turned into easy kill targets for pirates. My advice stop crying for nerfs, go practice and get better or quit piracy if you cannot handle running like the big dogs.

My point above stands to the first part of your statement.
My advice for you is to try things on both sides of the argument, rather than pointing fingers and saying people are merely whining about a ship. If you really are so bad that you will insist that "The salvager isn't OP because I die in it!!!" then get good. Don't think that just because you have had a bad experience with it, you stand for the whole population of Salvager pilots.

---

[Fluffyball]

Not that I am interested into Salvager or Raba, but... It's not that they both don't have CDs? They are unsuable for piracy if you are alone YET keep in mind one thing from the lore:

They are small gunboats remade into transports, with no CD slot.

But, because of Transport Shield they are more than screwed up. I mean, come on. I believe that Raba and Salvager are easily outmatched by two CAU armored Pelicans with Cerbs. Regen count, because of lack of CD, is good on that. We want variety of ships, not the "oh, the very same ship, but different model" for the sake of so-called balance.

As a side note, I find price for Democritus laughable. Why it is so expensive (75M), aside of the fact it uses only one GB turret and has like 2700 cargo? Only?

---

User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=138636
Time left: (Permanent)

[Lythrilux]

Not that I am interested into Salvager or Raba, but... It's not that they both don't have CDs? They are unsuable for piracy YET keep in mind one thing from the lore.

They're not unusable for piracy, you just need to work with a friend.

They are gunboats remade into transports. But, because of Transport Shield they are less than screwed up. I mean, come on. Both Raba and Salvager are outmatched by two CAU armored Pelicans with Cerbs.

Well duh, that's pretty obvious. I don't think any transport would have a fun time standing up to two CAU armoured transports.
With the way this game works, the bigger the ship gets the less likely it'll be able to stand up to two ships of the same class.

---

You edited your post.

But, because of Transport Shield they are more than screwed up. I mean, come on. I believe that Raba and Salvager are easily outmatched by two CAU armored Pelicans with Cerbs. Regen count, because of lack of CD, is good on that. We want variety of ships, not the "oh, the very same ship, but different model" for the sake of so-called balance.

If I understand what you're saying, pictutre this:
A transport with a decent powercore, near-cruiser armour, 750 reges, gunboat guns AND a CD and a gunboat shield.
I'd really like to see you try to tell me that that's not ridiculously OP.

---

[Fluffyball]

Not that I am interested into Salvager or Raba, but... It's not that they both don't have CDs? They are unsuable for piracy YET keep in mind one thing from the lore.

They're not unusable for piracy, you just need to work with a friend.

They are gunboats remade into transports. But, because of Transport Shield they are less than screwed up. I mean, come on. Both Raba and Salvager are outmatched by two CAU armored Pelicans with Cerbs.

Well duh, that's pretty obvious. I don't think any transport would have a fun time standing up to two CAU armoured transports.
With the way this game works, the bigger the ship gets the less likely it'll be able to stand up to two ships of the same class.

1. Oh yeah, I forgot to add up I meant Raba/Salvager one-player piracy. Edited it.

2. I assumed that Raba and Salvager has CAU too. But yeah, numbers, in all the history, always were superior to the size and firepower. So, we are okay with that.

Edited: I haven't said that it is bad. It is good for me, that Raba and Salvager do not have CD. It's very good!

---

User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=138636
Time left: (Permanent)

[AceofSpades]

*mind blown*

The Salvager/Raba is a rare choice to forego 40% cargo capacity, and to have no choice but a Junker alignment, in exchange for a hardened fireboat.

You see, this is one of the key reason why I don't think Junkers really need such a hardened ship at all. Well, I do like the ship itself and its design, but when you look at Junker diplomacy you're found scratching your head as to why Junkers need such a powerful ship in the first place.

So ye think its unfitting of a Junker. That's fine, but that's an opinion on canon RP, not a discussion about ship balance..

You kill regens you dampen the purpose of the ship, instead of accentuating the weaknesses. Statistics aside--as it's supposed to be a unique ship anyways--i'm pointing out that if you aren't creative about solving the problem it will just become another carbon copy heavy transport.

So what? Are you implying the salvager is meant to be some sort of glorified repair ship?
I'd chuckle at your statement regarding the salvager becoming useless without such a high amount of regens. I find the Salvager to be a useful miner, or as support in piracy. Trading would still be the same as it is now, minus the fact that you're not near-invincible unlike before.

I pointed out that nerfing the bots/bats would be reducing the ships' main purpose/advantage, and that a creative solution was needed to ensure the ships remain unique. There was nothing about a repair ship or adding repairs.. the fixation on bots/bats is blindingly overt.

Don't waste time chuckling at me son, focus on reading for context.

Regen nerf is lazy imo. It's a "Frigate". Make it the heaviest, hardiest, rock-like rock-mining vessel around. Killing the CM was an ambitious idea, perhaps another way to limit versatility? i would rather see unique concepts presented then a normalcy-nerf.

As long as it can virtually travel in a straight line from x to y and repair all it's damage thanks to regens within 20k or so, then all other nerfs are pointless and will not address the issue. In fact, removing the CM or altering it's other stats just makes it more pointless for other ventures, such as piracy.

How does removing a CM not affect a ships ability to flee..?
..I guarantee you that removing the CM from a ship is 9/10 times the easiest way to make it an easier target if not a sitting duck.

Also if your concern and reason for disregarding alternate nerfing ideas is 'preserving the Salvager's ability to Pirate', I'm further inclined to advise ye that your head is in the wrong place.. and that you're solving for a self-specific niche desire.


In summation: Perspective
Please take the time to read and contemplate other opinions before you continue spamming your own if ye want a 'productive debate'. Otherwise this is just an editorial piece regarding the Salvager/Raba's public opinion, and should be closed or moved accordingly.









Edit: The entire concept in a nutshell, once more for concise clarity.

D: As I said in my first post - your not arguing for balance, you are arguing for trade ships to be weaker so that the Pirate has the advantage, which they always do anyway.

L: I am completely arguing for balance - encounters between the two should not be immensely one-sided so that the pirate has little to no chance of being able to kill the salvager before it docks at a station.
And, in order to achieve balance, the trade ship may need to be weakened.

The trade ship is the weaker vessel in a 1v1 the majority of the time. We are speaking about a trade ship specifically designed to not be a simple target. In order to achieve balance as a transport, it foregoes many other qualities.

Not all encounters should be equal. Ye are complaining about running into the toughest cookie, in a mess of dessert options.
If every trade ship can be easily killed by a 1v1 or Lone-Wolf Pirate then you've removed any balance for transports.

Atm, there are a few ships that some Pirates clearly cant manhandle on their lonesome. Leave it this way. It's real.
If you wanna fix or change it without killing the variety? At least be creative sheesh. Transports are already generic enough..

---

-

[5:57:11 PM] InfernalTater (Lewis) [Formerly TLI-Inferno]:meanwhile, Aces 'I don't always miss my destinations, but when I do, I'm on the other side of house space.'

Seriously nerf Junkers.

Shoot to Thrill

[Red_One]

Why not just buddy up with someone if you want to pirate either of these two ships?

[SnakThree]

Why not just buddy up with someone if you want to pirate either of these two ships?

The question can be raised, why not buddy up if you want to trade while being invulnerable?

---

[Red_One]

Guess so!
I'm usually with someone as I space about though, kinda confused why nobody else in these arguments seems to do so.