AW vs TBH war, and AW current situation

[McNeo]

On the Tizona's I do have a right to complain about.

First off, you have no right to tell us what we can and cannot do.
Secondly, NEVER twist my words.

"No Zoner equipment" was what was bugging me. I may or may not have pointed out Cids specifically, but that is moot now that the cease fire is no longer in effect. Hence, please unmount the guns.

You are right though, he was not privy to the conversations that we had on the topic. Hence, you have the power to twist my words to your hearts content and people here will be none the wiser about what was actually said in the context that was meant.

And why do you think I said "There's nothing I can do to convince you, so I won't even try"? Because I know you wont believe a Corsair over an Outcast. Why would I even try? Im not going to beg to you not to go hostile with us. Im not going to kneel before you like a knave before his king because quite frankly, I knew it was coming. It is always coming when you look at AW and Corsairs. Whether its a week or a year, war will happen if either side does not change. Even before there was a Corsair faction, you were friendly to the [101st] formerly known as the [GoR]. I remember seeing them as "friendly" below your diplomacy list, actually.

Now on the Outcast Ships; We use the Rogue and LH GB/GS at the moment, as we don't have any better alternative. Thats why I've offered the IMG, but you guys come up with a reason not to use it to. So if you guys know everything in the world, how about you tell me what I can use in place? Hmm? Why do you think all of the indie Zoners fly IMG GBs if they aren't fighters? Because its the only one available. We have the LH GSs because of our prior alliance, and Rogue GBs because for a long time it was all we could use (before IMG GB or LH GSs).

Our job isn't to tell you what you can use. You're the leader, you figure it out. Its your job. If you can't use anything, then i'm afraid that's tough luck.

For OC Battleships.. I take it very few of you have read the infocards on the battlestars? Go take a look.. So instead we have a flagship in a Juggernaut, but it cannot leave Theta because any asteroids get it stuck. For awhile, I've required anyone who wants a BS to have appropriete rank requirements, and then they MUST write an RP for it. The Caedo was mae before I decided that, but I was planning on turning it into an OC BS as it can get through asteroids better than the OC Dread, plus the dread is supposed to be rare, so it makes sense for the OCs to own the majority, if not all, of them. I was planning on RPing the sale of that Dread to the Outcasts. Other than the Jugg and 2 Bstars, those are the only ones we are close to being able to get our hands on. Plus, you all seem to have missed what I said before about the jugg.. I'm hoping the new one can navigate asteroids, and if it does, I'll be requiring ALL battleships to be one. However, we do have to leave Theta occasionally, and to do so we HAVE to leave through a field. I was planning on helping the TAZ at Gran Canaria as the only BS, as a stationary siege platform. Unfortunately, that event took place while I was not at home. However, doing that took me 20 minutes to get to Omega-49, a 2-system trip.. And it'd be much, much worse for a Bstar. If you guys can offer me an alternative to the Bstars, I'll use it. I'd use the Osiris, due to alliance with the Order (even RPd with Bs|), except that Corsairs use it often, so i thought it'd be frowned upon. So which would you rather? OC BS or Osiris? Pick.

You don't seem to get it. Your whole reasoning is flawed. You want to be neutral? Act like it. I dont give two monkeys whether it goes through asteroids or not, it should be in RP for a neutral faction to have. It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too, and that is not good enough.

In fact, if AW were to get accepted with this kind of attitude, then I would suggest a large relaxation of the current faction formation rules. Anything less would be blatant double standarding, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I will do everything in my power to bring rank hypocrisy to an end.

Now, keep the flames DOWN please.

Piss-poor attempt at putting yourself in a more secure position by accusing others of flaming.

This topic better not get locked either. The more you put it off, the worse it gets.

[Equinox]

@chopper; We were NEVER at war with CR. We were hostile, not at war, with BSG, after it had split from CR, and that was because of BSG's own actions. Also, its sold on bases other than IMG, as Doom mentioned.

@The lot of you.. The Taiiden is just as RP as the Civ Bomber. Its made by GMG, a Zoner ally, and is sold on a Zoner Freeport. Hence why I used it. If I didn't care about the RP of it, I wouldn't forbid my members to use Falcatas.

On the Tizonas, any of the TBH has no right to complain about it.. When setting up the cease fire with McNeo, I had 'No using Corsair ships or equipment, and TBH down as 'No using Zoner ships or equipment.' McNeo asked me to remove the equipment part, and specifically mentioned that we were allowed Del Cids. I agreed after talking to a few other AW. Given that, yes, we are now hostile again. And you can ask all of my members, that they have been warned that if they buy any new Corsair equipment other than what they ALREADY HAD, I personally would be kicking them. We have, I believe, only 4 Del Cids in total, with none on our armoury.

@Global; Again I say. If you have evidence of what he said, send it to me. I punished him for the acts I was given evidence for, please don't turn the thread into a flame war with made-up excuses. If its not made-up, prove me wrong and I'll take appropriete action.

Also, you were not privy to the convos between McNeo and me. I showed him everything that happened and discussed it with him, warning that if it happened a fourth time, we would be hostile. When it did, I moved you to hostile, and told McNeo he would have time before it was announced. He had the oppertunity to give me some reason to stay Neutral. He said; There is nothing I can do to convince you, so I'm not even going to try.

Also, Omi-74 is a guard system 1 jump from Theta. Corsair Guard system is TWO jumps away. Your home system is Gamma. Zoner's home system is Theta. Zoners have full control over it, how else do you think they prevented Corsairs from making a base there, or do you not pay any attention to the news, only what helps your case?

And yes.. We've tried Furies. My LF has nothing but Furys, not even civ shield busters. However, on fighters they take a lot of energy, on bombers they don't do enough damage, as you can only use 4 of them. So we use Nomad weaponry and Codenames. Not Del Cids on them all.
Now on the Outcast Ships; We use the Rogue and LH GB/GS at the moment, as we don't have any better alternative. Thats why I've offered the IMG, but you guys come up with a reason not to use it to. So if you guys know everything in the world, how about you tell me what I can use in place? Hmm? Why do you think all of the indie Zoners fly IMG GBs if they aren't fighters? Because its the only one available. We have the LH GSs because of our prior alliance, and Rogue GBs because for a long time it was all we could use (before IMG GB or LH GSs).

For OC Battleships.. I take it very few of you have read the infocards on the battlestars? Go take a look.. So instead we have a flagship in a Juggernaut, but it cannot leave Theta because any asteroids get it stuck. For awhile, I've required anyone who wants a BS to have appropriete rank requirements, and then they MUST write an RP for it. The Caedo was mae before I decided that, but I was planning on turning it into an OC BS as it can get through asteroids better than the OC Dread, plus the dread is supposed to be rare, so it makes sense for the OCs to own the majority, if not all, of them. I was planning on RPing the sale of that Dread to the Outcasts. Other than the Jugg and 2 Bstars, those are the only ones we are close to being able to get our hands on. Plus, you all seem to have missed what I said before about the jugg.. I'm hoping the new one can navigate asteroids, and if it does, I'll be requiring ALL battleships to be one. However, we do have to leave Theta occasionally, and to do so we HAVE to leave through a field. I was planning on helping the TAZ at Gran Canaria as the only BS, as a stationary siege platform. Unfortunately, that event took place while I was not at home. However, doing that took me 20 minutes to get to Omega-49, a 2-system trip.. And it'd be much, much worse for a Bstar. If you guys can offer me an alternative to the Bstars, I'll use it. I'd use the Osiris, due to alliance with the Order (even RPd with Bs|), except that Corsairs use it often, so i thought it'd be frowned upon. So which would you rather? OC BS or Osiris? Pick.
@Equinox; We have an RP for the ships we use, thats why I allowed them. As I said above, if they want us to use ally ships, the Osiris, we will.
Also, We are not permanent enemies of the Corsairs, something you cannot say about the Blood Dragons. Also, it was AGREED on the cease fire, and McNeo was the one who wanted it, that equipment was still allowed to be bought, so I allowed my members to buy Del Cids. As mentioned, they are only able to use what they have bought, not allowed to buy any more. I know where all of those Tizonas are, so if someone does buy any, I will know about it.

And we DO use the Zoner Destroyers, even though they are less agile, and have far less firepower as the Outcast Destroyer. Oh, and its much easier to hit. We could use the Outcast Destroyers, but we do not, as we have an available Zoner ship to use.

Now, keep the flames DOWN please.

So what your saying is that the AW can use there enemy's weapons? because it really doesn't matter what the reasoning behind it is, the fact is that every other faction on this server is NOT allowed to use hostile factions weapons so my question to you is why should AW be any different?.

And please don't use the flame card, no one has flamed you or the AW, what people have done is brought up valid reasons as to why you shouldn't be using those weapons or flying a ship from a supposedly neutral faction. I ask you this, if a new faction proposal was posted and in there ship list was ships from factions that are neutral to the faction they are aligned to do you think it would get passed? because I don't believe they would, they would be asked to change there ship list. Its not really up to us to come up with an alternative for your battleship problem, if you don't have a ship to use from a friendly faction then you don't have a ship in that class like any other faction in that position.

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[Othman]

Zoners have a wide range of selection for ships. I can see the following possible for you,

Hawk, Griffin, Tiger Shark as the LF class.
Falcon as the HF class.
Eagle, Raven's Talon as the VHF class.
Taiidan & Civilian as the bomber class.
Zoners need a GB asap. Name it Zoner or Civilian but the mod needs it urgently.
Your new toy, Fearless as the destroyer/cruiser class.
Battlestar and Battlestar.Adv as the battleship class.
Zoner Juggernaught as the dreadnaught class.

Looks pretty much enough. I mean, would you need the Falcata or Sabre very badly while you have the Taiidan and Raven's Talon being sold on Zoner affliated locations? Same goes for the battleship class. Just think about these.

For weaponry, if you have a deal with Outcasts, I don't see a problem for you to be using some of their weapons. Since AW can't be considered as pure Zoners. While this argument might rot my previous argument about ship selection, I still believe that keeping the ties within weaponry management would be slightly more appreciated. And, if you are going to use Outcast weapons, you should get rid of any Corsair weaponry before going on. They just don't look nice when together whatsoever RP background stands beneath them.

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On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.

[chopper]

That's exactly why I told you that you shouldn't be Zoners.

You are acting like you are a military, not a Zoner.
Why do you need Gunboats?
Why do you need the best non-zoner Battleships?
Why do you need better bombers?

I really doubt it's because you are pacifists - and everyone else is just looking for a fight.

Zoners are not aggressive!

I gave you a suggestion that could actually work much better for your attitude.
That's 'Eta defenders', instead of 'Angry Zoners'.

And I agree with McNeo.. If you are to be allowed to go official with this kind of ship/weapon-list - then every new faction needs to be allowed as well.

And the fact is they are getting denied for it. So should you, unless you change it.

You don't see TBH flying Taiidan bombers because it was sold on Yaren base in the last version.
Fact is that Praetorian is much worse then Taiidan bomber.
Still - you can't see them flying it around. They fly their own.
This isn't about you using Taiidans, it's just to compare your 'Del Cid' usage with Corsair Taiidan usage.
You are hostile now? Good, ditch the weapons.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Eppy]

...I'd just like to point something out. Doesn't the idea of Unmount The Weapons contradict a continuing storyline? If the Order and the Outcasts were at one time friendly, and the Outcasts were using the Osiris (because that little thing is SO much cheaper to produce than the Dreadnought), and the diplomacy went from allied to hostile over time (as it has with the AW and the Corsairs), would the Outcasts simply scrap the Osirises? That's a perfectly good piece of expensive military hardware, why on earth would you scrap it because of a change in alignment? Use it to your advantage! Turn the enemy's blade against them! While you're obviously not buying any new Cids, why on earth would you scrap the old ones?

Oh, and as for the Outcast Dreadnought issue, yes, the ship shouldn't be there. Hence Dab's planning to switch it out for the Outcast Battleship, which is designed for export. Of course, the Corsairs are bound to scream bloody murder and declare war, but is it Out of Roleplay? I don't see it. Hopefully the new Juggernaut will come out, be the nice all-purpose BS we need in it, and we can drop the whole issue. Let's not dwell on things that will be resolved anyways.

Oh. And if the AW ever become 'Eta Defenders' I will chase them out. No, you are Not Welcome.

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[Korrd]

Dab, McNeo, you two better calm down. This is not the place to flame each other, but to discuss AW current situation and future.
If you two continue with this, I'll have to lock you out of the thread.
You are free to create a new thread to continue with that.

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[McNeo]

...I'd just like to point something out. Doesn't the idea of Unmount The Weapons contradict a continuing storyline? If the Order and the Outcasts were at one time friendly, and the Outcasts were using the Osiris (because that little thing is SO much cheaper to produce than the Dreadnought), and the diplomacy went from allied to hostile over time (as it has with the AW and the Corsairs), would the Outcasts simply scrap the Osirises? That's a perfectly good piece of expensive military hardware, why on earth would you scrap it because of a change in alignment? Use it to your advantage! Turn the enemy's blade against them! While you're obviously not buying any new Cids, why on earth would you scrap the old ones?

Oh, and as for the Outcast Dreadnought issue, yes, the ship shouldn't be there. Hence Dab's planning to switch it out for the Outcast Battleship, which is designed for export. Of course, the Corsairs are bound to scream bloody murder and declare war, but is it Out of Roleplay? I don't see it. Hopefully the new Juggernaut will come out, be the nice all-purpose BS we need in it, and we can drop the whole issue. Let's not dwell on things that will be resolved anyways.

Oh. And if the AW ever become 'Eta Defenders' I will chase them out. No, you are Not Welcome.

The Osiris would be scrapped once it was disabled in battle a single time. Considering how fast battleships get taken down, and the spare parts needed for their repair, you think the Outcasts (or any faction in fact) would go to the trouble of aquiring those just to repair it, especially if they just have two of their own models to use anyway?

Think in terms of logistics, and you'll see where Im coming from.

It is out of roleplay if you look closer and don't dodge the actual issue here. The AW shouldn't be the angry zoners that they currently are. If they want the Zoner tag, im afraid they are gonna need to work for it. My main issue with the zoner tag is that they claim neutrality with it, but favour one side with both ship choice and diplomacy.

Why would you chase them out if they became defenders of Eta? What is your problem with this idea and more importantly, how would you RP that?

[Robert.Fitzgerald]

Sorry to become a thread-jacker, but how do the Order produce their Osirises?

Do they requisition them from Tripoli (or wherever)?

Ontopic:
I can't answer for Eppy, so I won't.
I don't like the idea of all the battleships, AW is definately not as big as before. They should scale down their operations, as none of the battleships suggested fufill the RP and gameplay requirements.

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[globalplayer-svk]

Also, Omi-74 is a guard system 1 jump from Theta. Corsair Guard system is TWO jumps away. Your home system is Gamma. Zoner's home system is Theta. Zoners have full control over it, how else do you think they prevented Corsairs from making a base there, or do you not pay any attention to the news, only what helps your case?

yes,that is correct. but one important thing. Asgard Warriors are not zoners and never was zoners. Zoners support corsairs with food, and have always peace with corsairs. i pay attention to the news, but is difference between zoner id and AW id. zoner prevet corsairs from making base in theta,that is right, but they will never act so hostile as AW is acting to corsairs.

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[bluntpencil2001]

On weapons... I can see them getting away with the odd del Cid like SCRA does... we did have an arms deal with Corsairs after all. When we saw that relations had soured, we stockpiled before the deal was cut. We're running low now, though.

However, I don't think AW ever had such a deal. People would cry bloody murder if TBH were using Furys, for instance.

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