(10-26-2011, 06:59 PM)Snak5 Wrote: So guys, I always seen Guard Systems as something completely out of general Disco Mod (besides Connecticut...........................)
I had this idea long time ago:
Instead of having 15+ Guard Systems, completely occupied by f.e LN, KSP etc, make Guard System Complexes in regular systems, like LPI Guard Stations about 10k further from Illionis JH, so in total ~20k from Trade Lanes.
What would that achieve: less unneeded systems, better possibility for RP etc.
Though downside - less place for PvP practise. Well, train near Guard Station complex, will you? Training can be roleplay act as well.
So anyways. Anyone else agree to such idea, has own additions for such thing etc?
I don't see this as happening in near future, because that would actually make a lot of work.
But maybe, maybe sometime, when simply there won't be much need for systems that are not used for interactions.
4 years ago I porposed how unfit Guard Systems are and offered a solution. I could have done it back then. I am glad that developers are finally thinking more clearly. However, I am sad that they lack the balls to do the right thing the right way.
Okay Lyth, I'll bite. We didn't show our wounds when Minor fell? All because we didn't show everything on the forums didn't mean we did not do anything. No, we did a lot.
Half of the High Command was killed, the flagship of the time, Arsephes, was lost with all hands. We lost almost every tagged Osiris INRP, from the Kheops, the Gizeh, Feya's Hand, etc. We lost more ships then we can rebuild. The first inrp ship that was repaired was the Hamunaptra, which took awhile at our current time.
The current Order INRP fleet is actually smaller I believe, then the SCRA fleet, sadly enough.
Special:
Thebes (inactive, heavy damage)
Inquisitor (inactive, supply reasons)
Thunderbay (inactive, under massive refit operation)
Stationary:
Atum
Apophis
That's our fleet. Our entire fleet barring Hathors and the INRP 30ish more Reshephs, MAYBE. Probably more like 20, which are our most numerous capital vessel inrp. So no, we didn't just "haha we rebuilt" we lost most of our tagged Osirises. Our flagship is immobile without help, our biggest hitter, Inqusitor, down due to supply reasons. Our Osiris fleet consists of the FIRST OSIRIS. EVER. Two Osirises over fifteen years old, each. And whatever the backstory kf the Mirage is. Our Gebs are either a rechritened after heavy refit (Kusanagi) or brand new (Fedayeen, Ramses) or a survivor who had not as bad damage (Eclipse I believe). Most, if not all, Reshephs are either those too far away to have saved Minor, survivors, or patched together from more than one destroyed vessel. Literally we don't put everything on the forums, but I'll do my best to fix that.
If you look around our subforum, you'd have seen Tides of Change. We detailed the fall, the outcome. I posted and listed our current bases on Akabat. There's about seven. We have Seven bases on Akabat, maybe four stations and that's after losing a planet of million or more over a dozen bases and settlements on Toledo.
So please don't say we just shrug and say "Omi100 copout." Inrp, Evora has been full...no, it's been overcrowded with ships. Only recently has the workload lightened, but even then. Inrp we haven't fielded any battleships or carriers beyond Fedayeen, Ramses and Mirage. All because we don't show supply boards and all doesn't mean we did nothing. In fact of over three months or more we grounded our caps. Slowly we brought back Reshephs, then Osirises. Then we rpd Gebs being repaired. Since we got Mu we roleplayed our fleet heavily damaged and showed it through lack of using them.
But let's switch gears. I mentioned half of High Command was killed. By that, I mean HALF OF THEM DIED. Rod character died on Arsephes, Golanski was in a coma for months, thengaging out of nowhere came Taweret and Amduat. Both inrp were distrusted, highly distrusted by the Old Guard like Bolevara, Jeremy, Eriksson. Tensions ran high for a long, long time.
Then the Thebes. 141 and Order| collaborated on a POB that was meant to fix Thebes. That went on for over a year, almost until 141 merged with the Order.
We have even demanded the Kerimov of the SCRA be returned to us. We are hurting for ships bad enough to demand an old gift back.
We did our roleplay, we still do our roleplay. Kemwer just shows how desperate we are.
So please. Don't day we use 100 as a copout. We use it as one of only two system we can ever call safe.
I just read Tides of Change (it's a good read). Excuse me if I've missed something though. Now, there's mentions of Omicron-100 throughout that document however that's entirely fair because at the time I don't think the decree that guard systems were not canon had been given out yet? But what's problematic is letting Guard System spawned RP occur in modern disco, and continue to let it happen. Whilst at the same time, other factions have to roleplay around that and get shouted at by the communty doing so whilst the perpetrator gets off freely.
Reading Tides of Change, and your post, it's focus on what Order lost. That is fair and all, but I am talking about what they did to build back what they lost up until 822/823 A.S.
Why is Evora crowded with ships? How or what has Order done to create that overcrowding, and the repairs that would be done to fix all those ships back up? Order is not self-sufficient, surely they would have had to have contacted or made new allies in order to rebuild? I doubt Order would have been able to do this on their own. You'd need resources, especially from external groups. It's just so nonsensical that a magic super fleet suddenly comes pouring out a secretive system with no third party as witness via any role whatsoever. In the case of Rho, people delivering supplies via the supplies board would have seen i.e the Jupiter in the shipyard scaffolding.
This is the problem with Guard Systems. They're hoops of fire that factions jump through, and when they come out they have holes burned into their jacket. It creates situations that sadly encourage the factions themselves to powergame, creating falsehoods of who they are and what they have access to, and RP with themselves off the back of a system where they have 100% control over what elements float and what don't. You want to say you've harnessed the ability to control black holes and make ships that are powered by them? You got it - thanks Omicron-85. You want to say that an entire system is self-sufficient? Omicron-91 can get away with that perfectly. Official factions have had complete control over things lore wise in these systems with no dev input. You could pretty much get away with writing or doing whatever you wanted.
Next time you're in a Guard System read some of the infocards. It'll be interesting what you find
Thebes itself is currently in Omicron Mu, and it's got a normal Order IFF. I don't doubt the validity of the ship at all. Apo used to be in 100 - so it's validity and origin could be considered dubious - however it's been moved into Delta, so it's existence is undeniably canon right now. Which is fine. I don't doubt the validity of Mu either, it's not a Guard System.
What you're inferring throughout your post is that Order needs 100. Not trying to be snide or cynical here, but it doesn't. The system isn't canon and has no impact on mod lore. You can just consider everything you've done stuff you've done in Omicron Mu instead, essentially. But bringing non-canon elements into something like an Official Story Event is bad. Even worse when some factions can just ride on the wave of "do whatever we want" whilst other factions that try to preserve consistency and sense get railed no matter what. Hypothetically, if Omicron-100 was axed it wouldn't change anything in the Order's roleplay makeup. Trying to force it into canon lore creates holes and issues for factions around them though.
(03-20-2016, 11:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: I just read Tides of Change (it's a good read). Excuse me if I've missed something though. Now, there's mentions of Omicron-100 throughout that document however that's entirely fair because at the time I don't think the decree that guard systems were not canon had been given out yet? But what's problematic is letting Guard System spawned RP occur in modern disco, and continue to let it happen. Whilst at the same time, other factions have to roleplay around that and get shouted at by the communty doing so whilst the perpetrator gets off freely.
Reading Tides of Change, and your post, it's focus on what Order lost. That is fair and all, but I am talking about what they did to build back what they lost up until 822/823 A.S.
Beyond not using our capitals for months and months, sticking with gunships and Fighters to simulate the fact our fleet was nearly wiped out? And furthermore, most of the ships I did list, like the Oathkeeper, Svizra, Osiris, Spectre, Ghost Eye, and the Sarco and Heiro, are all old. Build back up? We've barely been able to build back up because of our low resources. Literally the fleet is held together with Order-grade duct tape and pure tenacity. We can't build our fleet back up to Pre-Fall strength because we are not bankrolled by Liberty, like apparently the Core has been? We might not have overtly done it but we have had Phoenix deliver supplies before they disbanded, and after Kemwer we've brought back fuel, hull plates, booze. We've done things we don't document religiously.
Quote:Why is Evora crowded with ships? How or what has Order done to create that overcrowding, and the repairs that would be done to fix all those ships back up? Order is not self-sufficient, surely they would have had to have contacted or made new allies in order to rebuild? I doubt Order would have been able to do this on their own. You'd need resources, especially from external groups. It's just so nonsensical that a magic super fleet suddenly comes pouring out a secretive system with no third party as witness via any role whatsoever. In the case of Rho, people delivering supplies via the supplies board would have seen i.e the Jupiter in the shipyard scaffolding.
How has the Order created overcrowding? The fleet list I showed earlier is what. Osirises were doubled up INRP, the gebs tripled, the Reshephs quadrupled. All because we didn't have the presence of mind to go through and organize that bloody thing doesn't mean that we're pulling a fleet from our asses. As for that random fleet I had no part in that so literally I can only account for the ships I mentioned above, and none more.
And new allies to help? We strengthened our stance with the Blood Dragons, reached out to the VWA to created the Sigma Alliance, we have been working to strengthen ties with CR, RHA, and now, after I returned, have ended the Cold War with the SCRA. We've made few new and strengthened the few close, and we keep on reaching out. There's a reason we inrp don't field a million caps, why inrp we aren't going around cloning and all. We're busy focusing on restoring what we lost - the Cells that watched the houses, the Fleet that watched the Nomads, and the build up is showing more now then it did before. We made Kemwer and are giving it to our allies, I've begun resuming House Cell Operations.
And no, we don't have the resources. But you know what we do have? Close relations with the Zoners who do. And that's where our help came from. We sent out a call around that time for help, for assistance. The Phoenix heard and helped, and that's where at least the refits and retrofits of the older craft to combat readiness came from. INRP we're still overbooked in the drydocks, but you know how hard it is to log a gazillion ships to show that? Very hard. So we opted to show through actions, not a million pictures that are deep in archives around the forums.
All because we didn't overtly show it every step of the way does not at all mean we just copped out and said 100 had a secret fleet behind Braga waiting for the call to invade Dabadoru. Maybe you should wonder why more people logged Order ships then Core, and worry more about your own roleplay and how you're going to terraform Nauru and keep Yaren secured, before complaining about systems that have literally been said either they'd be fixed or are looking at being fixed?
Quote:This is the problem with Guard Systems. They're hoops of fire that factions jump through, and when they come out they have holes burned into their jacket. It creates situations that sadly encourage the factions themselves to powergame, creating falsehoods of who they are and what they have access to, and RP with themselves off the back of a system where they have 100% control over what elements float and what don't. You want to say you've harnessed the ability to control black holes and make ships that are powered by them? You got it - thanks Omicron-85. You want to say that an entire system is self-sufficient? Omicron-91 can get away with that perfectly. Official factions have had complete control over things lore wise in these systems with no dev input. You could pretty much get away with writing or doing whatever you wanted.
Next time you're in a Guard System read some of the infocards. It'll be interesting what you find :D
I checked Rho just to be sure. It was pretty much a carbon copy of 100 infocard wise - pretty boring stuff. Actually the only difference is that we tried terrarforming Planet Braga. We failed, and made Mora station to keep an eye on Omicron 92. Fun fact, nothing in 100 can even attempt to show powergaming, as every planet is useless and the asteroid field is rocks, rocks, and more rocks. Nomomomom can make rock people at least. Literally we didn't get away with anything, and we don't. So there, I read my Guard System infocards for both Order and Core. Pretty much same gist. "Oh it's our system and we have a shipyard and station and like it's where our capitals are based out of" and all that fun stuff. Our main difference is Lisbon was made to watch the JH to Minor, and Mora to research 92. Of which their only crime is...an IFF saying Guard.
[qoute]
Thebes itself is currently in Omicron Mu, and it's got a normal Order IFF. I don't doubt the validity of the ship at all. Apo used to be in 100 - so it's validity and origin could be considered dubious - however it's been moved into Delta, so it's existence is undeniably canon right now. Which is fine. I don't doubt the validity of Mu either, it's not a Guard System.
[/quote]
Yet Mu operates just like Rho, which barely has any enemy patrols. It's mostly safe, like 100, which still feature Nomad patrols in certain areas, like Rho has the Order patrols near the Delta Jump Hole. So it literally doesn't exist any differently from your Rho, or Mu. Literally 100 is off the beaten path and needs some tweaking sure, but outright deletion is going too far.
Quote:What you're inferring throughout your post is that Order needs 100. Not trying to be snide or cynical here, but it doesn't. The system isn't canon and has no impact on mod lore. You can just consider everything you've done stuff you've done in Omicron Mu instead, essentially. But bringing non-canon elements into something like an Official Story Event is bad. Even worse when some factions can just ride on the wave of "do whatever we want" whilst other factions that try to preserve consistency and sense get railed no matter what. Hypothetically, if Omicron-100 was axed it wouldn't change anything in the Order's roleplay makeup. Trying to force it into canon lore creates holes and issues for factions around them though.
No, no we cannot. Why? Mu wasn't colonized until after the Thebes jumped in and wrecked it's engines. We charted but never got to colonize it before we got wrecked at Minor, so saying EVERYTHING HAPPENED IN MU is ridiculous. Is 100 axable? Sadly yes, because the devs say so. But with that logic in mind, let's axe Rho and stick you in Luneburg. Or maybe Eta. Or somewhere else. Doesn't feel good, Rho being chopped up and divided does it? Alabama a few sectors away from our Mora maybe.
We don't want to lose 100, because not only can it EASILY be fixed but we spent a lot of roleplay in a Guard system that was quite honestly one of the most underpowered guard systems ever. No abundance of materials, no abundance of anything but rocks, rocks, and more rocks. But above all, why do I fight for 100? because it's one of two systems the Order has. 100 was where we tested Thebes, where we perfected the Geb and where we developed the Bastet. That couldn't have been done in Minor, it was too dangerous to make the Thebes there. It couldn't have been done in Mu, we hadn't even found it for most of it.
Is it a problem we used a Guard System? Maybe. But the real problem lies not in a system, but in the intent and in the Faction Lore itself. And last I checked, we roleplayed it as merely a system. Not our great powergaming godsystem, not as the source of our power, but as a place to build our fleet and try and make a new home. And, failing that, moved the Order High Command to Lisbon/Evora to ensure their safety as Minor was slowly, slowly attacked.
So if you would kindly refrain from accusing us of powergaming when we haven't powergamed at all, when we have made allies before and after Minor that clearly explain how we do things, and refrain from accusing us of just copping out roleplay all because we don't bend over backwards to post every single little thing we ever did, that would be appreciated. Because, in the end, we did more of our "build up" roleplay ingame using visual assets, such as our extreme lack of any cap above the Hathor, and our reliance more on Taskforce 141 to help rebuild Thebes' after it's damages.
As for "holes for everyone around us" No Lyth, it's only holes for Core. Holes that are filled by the fact we have no control of who logs for events, who goes to fight in the events, who decides on WHICH SIDE they log for. We only control ships tagged Order|, ships that listen, and finally, we control 100. We control the fact every asset it has is either a useless decorative fixture, or one of three stations: An aging defense station, a station built using leftover equipment from a failed terraforming, and the one Order station that is now the center of all Order activity - Evora.
But you know what, who cares. Let's delete 100 instead of fixing it. Let's delete Londonderry instead of fixing it. But if we're doing that, delete Rho, or move other factions into it. Because two stations in Rho? Who do you people think you are, some god-blessed empire who can field fleets comparable to Liberty?
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: Beyond not using our capitals for months and months, sticking with gunships and Fighters to simulate the fact our fleet was nearly wiped out? And furthermore, most of the ships I did list, like the Oathkeeper, Svizra, Osiris, Spectre, Ghost Eye, and the Sarco and Heiro, are all old. Build back up? We've barely been able to build back up because of our low resources. Literally the fleet is held together with Order-grade duct tape and pure tenacity. We can't build our fleet back up to Pre-Fall strength because we are not bankrolled by Liberty, like apparently the Core has been? We might not have overtly done it but we have had Phoenix deliver supplies before they disbanded, and after Kemwer we've brought back fuel, hull plates, booze. We've done things we don't document religiously.
It's not about limiting your ships, but what you've done to get back to the point you are at. If Phoenix helped with supplies though, that's excellent. That's good. But where were they deliveried? Omicron-100 or Mu? And the magnitude of the Spear fleet doesn't seem like it was created by just Phoenix - a small Zoner group - and Order on their own.
And Core wasn't bankrolled by Liberty post-Minor. Not exclusively at least. We focused on playing things defensively and built up via our own exports, which would fund supply from external sources.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: And new allies to help? We strengthened our stance with the Blood Dragons, reached out to the VWA to created the Sigma Alliance, we have been working to strengthen ties with CR, RHA, and now, after I returned, have ended the Cold War with the SCRA. We've made few new and strengthened the few close, and we keep on reaching out. There's a reason we inrp don't field a million caps, why inrp we aren't going around cloning and all. We're busy focusing on restoring what we lost - the Cells that watched the houses, the Fleet that watched the Nomads, and the build up is showing more now then it did before. We made Kemwer and are giving it to our allies, I've begun resuming House Cell Operations.
All that stuff has been done extremely recently though. The vast majority of it being post-Spear. It's filling some holes, but not all of them.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: And no, we don't have the resources. But you know what we do have? Close relations with the Zoners who do. And that's where our help came from. We sent out a call around that time for help, for assistance. The Phoenix heard and helped, and that's where at least the refits and retrofits of the older craft to combat readiness came from. INRP we're still overbooked in the drydocks, but you know how hard it is to log a gazillion ships to show that? Very hard. So we opted to show through actions, not a million pictures that are deep in archives around the forums.
But haven't Order relations with Zoners deteriorated since Minor? Namely there's examples such as TAZ, and other shows of mistrust throughout the Zoner community. I'm not saying you need to log a gazillion ships, and in fact it is much easier to create supply convoys and contracts than do that or 'actions'.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: All because we didn't overtly show it every step of the way does not at all mean we just copped out and said 100 had a secret fleet behind Braga waiting for the call to invade Dabadoru.
The problem is that's a lot what it looks like. The RP itself has been based around a non-canon system. Overtly showing it shows how the faction influences the Sirius universe around it, and how it adapts to political change. It's not a matter of Order trying to remain a covert organization, it's a matter of Order showing that they're still connected with the lore without needing to power their way through things with internal solutions instead.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: Maybe you should wonder why more people logged Order ships then Core, and worry more about your own roleplay and how you're going to terraform Nauru and keep Yaren secured, before complaining about systems that have literally been said either they'd be fixed or are looking at being fixed?
None of what you've said is really relevant to the discussion at hand. However, it is all canon. As I've said my issue stems from the problems of double standards (as well as other typical problems with Guard systems) and how non-canon RP affects canon storyline events.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: I checked Rho just to be sure. It was pretty much a carbon copy of 100 infocard wise - pretty boring stuff. Actually the only difference is that we tried terrarforming Planet Braga. We failed, and made Mora station to keep an eye on Omicron 92. Fun fact, nothing in 100 can even attempt to show powergaming, as every planet is useless and the asteroid field is rocks, rocks, and more rocks. Nomomomom can make rock people at least. Literally we didn't get away with anything, and we don't. So there, I read my Guard System infocards for both Order and Core. Pretty much same gist. "Oh it's our system and we have a shipyard and station and like it's where our capitals are based out of" and all that fun stuff. Our main difference is Lisbon was made to watch the JH to Minor, and Mora to research 92. Of which their only crime is...an IFF saying Guard.
But your mistake in your comparison is that Rho is not a Guard system. It was deguarded when BHG Guard became BHG Core and when Omega-56 changed from being the BHG Guard system to the BHG Core system of operations. It was redesigned again when it was turned into Omicron Rho. The lack of infocards in Rho however is attributed to the faction just not having many infocards at all. A lot of it's NPCs have been or were copy and pasted from BHG bases. Essentially, Rho/56 were tweaked to fit the roleplay enviroment around them and ensure that they and their owner factions fit into the mod properly (and are still getting tweaked because I still have work to do). 100 has not had that treatment.
For example, how can Order even try to terraform Braga on their own? That's an example of inconsistency. For the sake of comparison, in terms of Nauru Core piggybacked Corsair/Zoner/Order colonisation efforts and later got the help of Corps and Zoners to finish up the job of filtering the atmosphere.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: Yet Mu operates just like Rho, which barely has any enemy patrols. It's mostly safe, like 100, which still feature Nomad patrols in certain areas, like Rho has the Order patrols near the Delta Jump Hole. So it literally doesn't exist any differently from your Rho, or Mu. Literally 100 is off the beaten path and needs some tweaking sure, but outright deletion is going too far.
Mu is completely fine. Mu actually does have a fair few enemy patrols in it. Not in too many locations, but enough. Rho has kind of been screwed over recently and needs to have anoter de-design, but it also does have NPC patrols of the correct amounts. Deletion of 100 isn't going too far because the system isn't canon. At the least, it's assets could just be merged with Mu (albeit creating clutter) but I don't see why the RP of those assets can't be changed to that of assets in Mu.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: No, no we cannot. Why? Mu wasn't colonized until after the Thebes jumped in and wrecked it's engines. We charted but never got to colonize it before we got wrecked at Minor, so saying EVERYTHING HAPPENED IN MU is ridiculous. Is 100 axable? Sadly yes, because the devs say so. But with that logic in mind, let's axe Rho and stick you in Luneburg. Or maybe Eta. Or somewhere else. Doesn't feel good, Rho being chopped up and divided does it? Alabama a few sectors away from our Mora maybe.
Rho is canon and isn't a guard system though. Your point is moot. Saying everything happened in Mu isn't ridiculous, it's just a way of maintaining consistency and canon. If Rho was a guard system, well then let it suffer the same fate as every other guard system and shame on me for making RP out of a non-canon system.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: We don't want to lose 100, because not only can it EASILY be fixed but we spent a lot of roleplay in a Guard system that was quite honestly one of the most underpowered guard systems ever. No abundance of materials, no abundance of anything but rocks, rocks, and more rocks. But above all, why do I fight for 100? because it's one of two systems the Order has. 100 was where we tested Thebes, where we perfected the Geb and where we developed the Bastet. That couldn't have been done in Minor, it was too dangerous to make the Thebes there. It couldn't have been done in Mu, we hadn't even found it for most of it.
I don't see why Order needs 100 though. Mu serves perfectly as their 'home' system without lending towards powergaming or non-canon lore. As I've said losing 100 makes no difference as the system isn't canon. And yes, I'm sure that all this super-secret-stuff-that-no-one-else-gets-to-see can be done inside a system which a faction that 100% (not even devs involved) story control over. Where they can shape every element to the system how they want, because they paid 500 million for it - not roleplayed it's discovery. All that stuff could be done in Mu, where it's transition into canon would actually go a lot more smoothly.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: Is it a problem we used a Guard System? Maybe. But the real problem lies not in a system, but in the intent and in the Faction Lore itself. And last I checked, we roleplayed it as merely a system. Not our great powergaming godsystem, not as the source of our power, but as a place to build our fleet and try and make a new home. And, failing that, moved the Order High Command to Lisbon/Evora to ensure their safety as Minor was slowly, slowly attacked.
And it's a mistake to use it as the source of your power. It just creates inconsistencies with lore. Yes, the problem is with the intent in faction lore itself because the faction is just shooting holes in itself. And then not addressing them nor plugging them later. You roleplayed it as a place to build your fleet and make it your new home because other factions, not even the devs, are allowed to interfere with whatever you do there. There's no quality control, or interaction with the external enviroment. For the fee of 500 million, you can do whatever you want. That is the problem with Guard systems.
And like I said: other factions have had their Guard system get axed or it's still on the chopping block. Why does Order get to be an exception? It's not like those other systems didn't have RP associated with them.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: So if you would kindly refrain from accusing us of powergaming when we haven't powergamed at all, when we have made allies before and after Minor that clearly explain how we do things, and refrain from accusing us of just copping out roleplay all because we don't bend over backwards to post every single little thing we ever did, that would be appreciated. Because, in the end, we did more of our "build up" roleplay ingame using visual assets, such as our extreme lack of any cap above the Hathor, and our reliance more on Taskforce 141 to help rebuild Thebes' after it's damages.
Whilst there are some of your points are fair, most of it is just "this is our system and it should stay because x, y and z! Mod canon and consistency is not important!". The very nature of Guard systems themselves are/is powergaming.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: But you know what, who cares. Let's delete 100 instead of fixing it. Let's delete Londonderry instead of fixing it.
I think it is better to purge them from the mod to keep consistency and canon. If absolutely needed though, assets can simply be merged - even though I think that's a half-measure.
(03-21-2016, 03:51 AM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: But if we're doing that, delete Rho, or move other factions into it. Because two stations in Rho? Who do you people think you are, some god-blessed empire who can field fleets comparable to Liberty?
Quote:Rho is canon and isn't a guard system though. Your point is moot.
Btw there is nothing that says we are a "god-blessed empire who can field fleets comparable to Liberty". But if that's what you believe then it seems like our propaganda is working.
This thread really isn't about Core though, and I've seen these sorts of points before that are thrown out to derail a thread off topic and dodge questions.
Core is like the non-flood version of the Spiderman meme sometimes, I swear. Anyway, keep on topic.
Lyth, if you make posts about double standards regarding treatment of Order compared to other factions, specifically Core and using Operation Spear, don't be surprised if responses include factions like Core in their argument too.
Regarding other faction relations: The gameplay effects of the TAZ incident were mostly ooRP given the way Zoners function. If at all, only a small portion of the Zoners that were already supporting the Order turned away from them. Zoners who lived in places that mattered the most to the Order (Omicrons) were inRP almost entirely unaffected by the event that barely could've mattered to them.
Other faction relations didn't just improve in the last year. Ties existed beforehand in varying degrees to other factions and it would be ignorant to assume otherwise.
You can not really say that Omicron-100 is powergaming, because let's be honest: What power? The power to have a system that's useless in terms of resources, strategically difficult placement (O92, OMinor at the borders) with stations (except for Evora) that do not really have much significance.
And then you're saying the Order trying to terraform Braga on their own is an inconsistency? I would agree with you, if the terraforming was successful. But it wasn't, and that's the key point you're ignoring.
Regarding the pace of development: Not all systems have been adressed as of yet, that is yet to come. So if some systems are deguarded/deleted while some of the same type are not, it may simply be a thing of pacing. Please try not to ignore this.
Other than that, I agree with Jeremy completely.
The final problem with your monotonous 'propaganda' is that it strikes too many of us not as a purely inRP thing, but that the mentality you are trying to convey inRP is also seeping into the Core's ooRP attitude, or at least yours. That you are repeatedly mad at me for not returning the stationary battleships to the jumpholes in Omicron Rho and placing more 'assets' like this into the system despite my numerous explanations is just one episode of it.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: Lyth, if you make posts about double standards regarding treatment of Order compared to other factions, specifically Core and using Operation Spear, don't be surprised if responses include factions like Core in their argument too.
I won't be suprised, but trying to deflect things off into a debate about the Core is derailment. I'm just going to ignore the majority of those points because they're desperate. Take it to the Core feedback if you really want to discuss our Propaganda effort.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: Regarding other faction relations: The gameplay effects of the TAZ incident were mostly ooRP given the way Zoners function. If at all, only a small portion of the Zoners that were already supporting the Order turned away from them. Zoners who lived in places that mattered the most to the Order (Omicrons) were inRP almost entirely unaffected by the event that barely could've mattered to them.
Other faction relations didn't just improve in the last year. Ties existed beforehand in varying degrees to other factions and it would be ignorant to assume otherwise.
I'm not sure if Order powering their way into Zoner diplo via Phoenix secures majority support. Fair enough, there is OSI, and relations have opened with them in the past year, but given the genericness of the entire Zoner NPC faction concept I think it's extreme to imply that most Zoners hold Order favourable sentiments. I don't think the TAZ incident and RP that followed from that can necessairly be considered either, as it was all a buildup of the Order's crude treatment of Zoners beyond Phoenix. It doesn't help that any sort of trader, Zoner or otherwise, gets aphrended and punished for bringing supplies all things to Omicron Mu.
Although I think at the least it's more logical for Order to have more support of specific Zoner groups themselves, rather than majority support of the entire NPC faction itself.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: You can not really say that Omicron-100 is powergaming, because let's be honest: What power? The power to have a system that's useless in terms of resources, strategically difficult placement (O92, OMinor at the borders) with stations (except for Evora) that do not really have much significance.
Yet here we are debating how 100 is some sort of powerhouse that can (almost) secretly manufacture a brand new fleet with ease. And no one says anything about. No questions, no complaints. Heck it even gets used for a canon storyline event.
But if 100 doesn't affect the balance of power whatsoever, the system can just be removed and it's assets along with it or they can be merged into Mu instead.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: And then you're saying the Order trying to terraform Braga on their own is an inconsistency? I would agree with you, if the terraforming was successful. But it wasn't, and that's the key point you're ignoring.
Code:
487517(i)
Braga was the only planet in Omicron-100 suitable for terraforming, but after several years of development, its core began to heat up. Colonists were unable to control the global warming and as a result, Braga was abandoned. Now it remains a deserted wreck of what the Order could have called home.
Reading the infocard it actually implies more that Order was perfectly capable of teraforming, and the core of the Planet just headed up on it's own which I doubt anyone - even Planetform - could control. The issue itself lies within the implication that Order is fully capable of terraforming Plantes, the sort of ability anyone could get away with saying they have in a Guard System infocard.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: Regarding the pace of development: Not all systems have been adressed as of yet, that is yet to come. So if some systems are deguarded/deleted while some of the same type are not, it may simply be a thing of pacing. Please try not to ignore this.
I'm not ignoring that. I'm arguing that not a single guard system should be ignored from the cull though, like what Londonderry has been.
(03-21-2016, 05:36 AM)LordVipex Wrote: you are repeatedly mad at me for not returning the stationary battleships to the jumpholes in Omicron Rho and placing more 'assets' like this into the system despite my numerous explanations is just one episode of it.
Your numerous explanations are bollocks. I believe that. Core| believes that. Our indies believe that. And even people who don't play Core whatsoever believe that. Much like your entire post here, the way you designed Rho was not impartial and unbiased at all. You did so with your alliegiance to the Order| official faction heavily in mind. And I'm not just grasping at straws here. Also wow, look at you trying to paint a picture of me as a devil in this thread by saying I wanted those caps back at the jump holes, when I explicity said multiple times to you and all across the forums I didn't care about them being there. I want my system to have openenss, otherwise how can we facilitate non-Core activity lol? Your explanations are the ones that disregard the opinions of others just because you can and have the power to and are done so out of extreme bias. They have no basis, and honestly it's surreal you have a yellow name at all.
I'm sure you of all people would be delighted to have a crack at meddling with IMG's assets too. And I'm sure @Jack_Henderson would be more than happy to hear you working on them. Funny how IMG didn't get off so well in the recent slew of mining updates, right Mr. Mining Dev?
Y'know what. Sure. Lets keep Guard Systems in the mod. Lets make them canon too. Lets also get the staff to bring back all the previously deleted/merged Guard Systems, and allow factions to buy them for 500 million again. Sure, the double standards will still remain, but at least things will be a little bit more fair.
3 stationary battleships right next to a jumphole is not good development practices and will hurt gameplay. I'm glad they're gone. There was multiple systems with blocking features like these and if factions indeed want openness (and they should), preventing people from entering your system is not a way to achieve that.
I actually wonder if the Coalition system was rectified accordingly yet, I haven't been there in quite a while.
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It was actually a battleship and two battlecruisers FYI. And as I said in my post I didn't think it is good for them to lock down the holes. I don't believe in locking down systems gameplay wise. But I wanted the caps to be moved, not deleted. It discourages raid activity, activity that my faction specifically flourishes on. Rho still sucks for raids now and I want more changes to accommodate that. I want people to be visiting Rho.
The static caps affected us negatively too mind. Supply ships coming to Rho would get obliterated upon jumping in, making it unattractive for trading. It really hurt our efforts to do supply RP, as a bribe didn't exist at the time so some factions we just couldn't really maintain diplomatic RP with.
But as I said they need to be moved. Whilst one group was, albeit dumped into an extremely obscure and non-sensical place, the other was deleted. What's worse is that Vipex lied about the scale of the changes in Rho and only told us we'd be getting a starsphere change. And then he treats valid complaints as "hurr durr core strongk" and gets to keep waving his [faction here]-branded fiddle whilst moving onto the next part of the mod to toy with.
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