I don't see why the Houses Militaries shouldn't be able to control who has their ships. In real life, no one calls it "fascism" when civilians can't pinch M1 Abrams tanks from US Army bases (and the US Air Force doesn't sell off F16 Raptors, nor does the Navy sell off Nimitz class carriers to the general public). No one calls the fact you can't buy NYPD badges on the black market and try and police New York City "oppressive" or "unfair". I've never heard anyone arguing in a US Court that the Constitution gives them a right to impersonate a CIA agent.
So why do the people here scream bloody murder when a faction decides to act like what it's supposed to roleplay?
If you have a problem with factions setting such restrictions, take it up with the admins. They are the ones allowing the continued existence of factions with unilateral names like "Liberty Security Force" or "Rheinland Military".
It's also a complete strawman to argue the factions are enforcing it like a server rule. It's a roleplay restriction, like busting people with cardamine. There's not a single military on this Earth that allows you to take it's vehicles or identification without it's permission and/or membership. If you can find me a military that allows that, I'll concede that last point.
But that's getting off topic. The real point here is the enforcement of regulations regarding Zone 21, and the main problems seem to be 'independents' (Indies is too cutesy for me) and manpower.
Is it possible to implement this -
Only following IDs - LSF & Liberty Navy can access the Alaska Jumpgate and JH from alaska ?
Not sure if SP will get affected, else you can purchase LSF/Navy ID early on in the game...
Of if this can be implemented in MP only, the server checks before it opens the gate for you....
If not, then mod can be changed to make the Alaska JG at a distance near the edge of the map, and several
Navy BS patrols along the route... will make it useless for traders going OORP to get through from Alaska.
The minefield could also be modified to make it much larger surrounding the JG entirely and the path be made
twisty (like the one somewhere else in the SP game where the Nomad shipyard was, forgot where) and add
weapon platforms of Navy Guard & LSF along the way.... whopper !
That should probably not affect the SP also...
<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Spec - Independent Trader</span> Small Transport - Hauling without earning
Current Status: Inactive - Too Much Work and Travel
' Wrote:I don't see why the Houses Militaries shouldn't be able to control who has their ships. In real life, no one calls it "fascism" when civilians can't pinch M1 Abrams tanks from US Army bases (and the US Air Force doesn't sell off F16 Raptors, nor does the Navy sell off Nimitz class carriers to the general public). No one calls the fact you can't buy NYPD badges on the black market and try and police New York City "oppressive" or "unfair". I've never heard anyone arguing in a US Court that the Constitution gives them a right to impersonate a CIA agent.
If you have a problem with factions setting such restrictions, take it up with the admins. They are the ones allowing the continued existence of factions with unilateral names like "Liberty Security Force" or "Rheinland Military".
It's also a complete strawman to argue the factions are enforcing it like a server rule. It's a roleplay restriction, like busting people with cardamine. There's not a single military on this Earth that allows you to take it's vehicles or identification without it's permission and/or membership. If you can find me a military that allows that, I'll concede that last point.
The issue isnt 'civilians' using liberty ships, it's "independent liberty lawfuls" using the ships.
SA/LSF want all the power, and they dont want people who arent in their little player-made faction to have any. They treat independents as inferior, when we've got every bit as much right to play this game and enjoy it as they do.
' Wrote:I don't see why the Houses Militaries shouldn't be able to control who has their ships. In real life, no one calls it "fascism" when civilians can't pinch M1 Abrams tanks from US Army bases.
We have Hummers.. Why can people here use Wraths and RH Bombers?
Also, this isn't Earth. This is freelancer, and some people seem to forget that, much like how its a game in which people attempt to relax. I say attempt, as people such as RM make people unable to do so. Its wrong to try to restrict it. Things like this have been suggested before, and Igiss said he wouldn't restrict things like that. If the mod maker doesn't like it, should you really be doing it? Should you be using Earth situations to justify positions on a game?
EDIT: I don't know why I even though about the hummer.. Tenacity is correct, they aren't civilians using it. Who do you think operates tanks in real life? Enlisted soldiers. Think of SA and RM as officers, the Lieutenants and above. Indies are the enlisted soldiers, private to Sergeant Major of the Army. So yes, in real life, tanks aren't available to civilians, some military vehicles are however. But we aren't talking about civilians, and its about time you acknowledge the rights of other players, not just what you want. I think thats dictatorship when you put your wants above anything and everything, no?
I can agree with your point regarding the Liberty Navy, since the SA shouldn't be policing the Northern systems and they don't encompass the split-in-two LN.
But.. if something isn't part of an entity called the Liberty Security Force and claims to be, what is it? What would you say if you were in the US Army and saw a guy in a tank claiming to be an "independent US Army" who wasn't listed on any personnel list?
It's Brians (sdssn!p3rs) right to set how his faction will behave, though if he wishes to allow 'independent LSF' I would advise him to change the name and nature of his faction, to avoid confusion.
Face it, all factions 'limit' your enjoyment in some way. You can't roleplay as independent Nomads (an oxymoron, considering how Nomads work) due to the Keepers and Das Wilde. You can't roleplay as independent Phantoms due to the Phantoms. You can't roleplay as independnet Coalition (an oxymoron, as the SCRA are a paramilitary organisation that encompasses all Coalition remnants) because of the SCRA.
If you truly find these policies objectionable, you either need to petition the administrators to ban any factions using unilateral names (Liberty Security Force, Rheinland Military, for two examples I've highlighted) or ask the leaders of those factions to change their names and roleplay.\
Find me, then, a single example of a *fictional* military that has no chain of command and sells off it's ships and identification to random people and allows them to police it's space while not following it's order and operating under it's auspices.
Roleplay is all about the simulation of things. If we aren't using Earth examples as models for this, what are we to go on? It's the only consistent and logical standard to use for modeling, and it's exactly the ones the developers use. Provide me an argument besides "It's wrong" backed by evidence and by logic. It's not more
I'm not asking for administrator support or sanctions, which I have said previously. So, the Igiss thing is a red herring, and plus, Igiss representatives in the administrators allow the continued existence of factions with unilateral names. If Igiss truly objects to these policies, he would have stepped in himself or ordered the administrators to ban unilaterally named facitons.
"It's just a game" is not a valid argument. We are speaking about a roleplay activity, which inherently involves suspension of disbelief. Besides, even fiction needs to be self consistent. You don't see 'good' Sith in Star Wars, for example.
Comparing me to dictators is childish and ad hominem. I want a self consistent environment. I don't even run a military faction. By your logic, only Lieutenants and above are US Army personnel, which isn't at all how it works in RL.
' Wrote:SA/LSF want all the power, and they dont want people who arent in their little player-made faction to have any. They treat independents as inferior, when we've got every bit as much right to play this game and enjoy it as they do.
Having independent lawfuls where player faction already exists creates a lot of confusion on authority and
chain of command.
SA/LSF/LPI don't want all the powers, it's for a good RP reason. If an independent police issues orders then
a faction directs him to do otherwise, whose order will the guy follow, independent/faction, very confusing.
Currently the faction have set rules about independents, but I think it should be made a server rule also
especially for lawful factions and ships. The military/navy/police never sell current weapons/ships (only unused, discarded or decommissioned). Also it's highly unlikely that anyone can steal them or can be borrowed...
It's completely out of RP to be flying around in a current generation military ship without being part of the
military faction....
<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Spec - Independent Trader</span> Small Transport - Hauling without earning
Current Status: Inactive - Too Much Work and Travel
Ah but your not paying attention.. In real life it wouldn't be a guy coming up claiming to be an 'independent US army soldier' he would simply BE a US soldier. Yes, RM has a leader. However, that leader isn't the leader of the ENTIRE NPC RM. There would inevitably someone above him. Just because your a PC faction with the name and affiliation to match the NPC faction doesn't mean you control it and only people who are in your faction are that NPC faction. Once they have the ID and tag, they ARE that faction. Not 'independent US army soldier' just a US army soldier. They have ID so now they are impersonating? I'll go off the beaten tracks of diplomatic speaking and say what that is; Stupid. Idiotic. Anyone with a Zoner ID and tag is a Zoner. Not independent Zoner while TAZ are the only Zoners. He is simply a Zoner. We only use independent to describe people who simply aren't in the PC faction. But that description was never meant to say, and should never mean, that those people simply aren't that faction. If someone wants to play as an RM VHF, he has that right, and the RM PC faction does NOT have the right to tell him otherwise. If I do find that RM go and say; "You can't be RM IDd/Tagged unless your in our faction" then I WOULD go to admins, even to Igiss if need be, as its a complete abuse of power and disregards the rights of the players. This is a game, not a powergrab.
' Wrote:Once they have the ID and tag, they ARE that faction. Not 'independent US army soldier' just a US army soldier. They have ID so now they are impersonating? I'll go off the beaten tracks of diplomatic speaking and say what that is; Stupid. Idiotic. Anyone with a Zoner ID and tag is a Zoner. Not independent Zoner while TAZ are the only Zoners. He is simply a Zoner.
I agree with you on the ID for non PC/non house controlling factions.
Zoners are a group of people with common goals, not a military order run by a government. They are
individuals (having more or less the same way of life, but independent), and may wish to group to reap
advantages and set goals.
Military etc etc are a proper order, you are recruited into the Military and are an employee of the government.
This enables you to act on behalf of the government and use the equipment provided.
' Wrote:If someone wants to play as an RM VHF, he has that right, and the RM PC faction does NOT have the right to tell him otherwise.
Yes, he has the right, but he must join the factions, else there will be issues like I described above or other
command chain related issues. In case of conflicting orders, whose authority supercedes ?
Any military has to have a uniform order/thought/aliance/command, etc etc, that's why they are military.
Any independent will not be aware, will have diff ideas, etc there will be no order then and it can't be called
a military org then, would it ?
<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Spec - Independent Trader</span> Small Transport - Hauling without earning
Current Status: Inactive - Too Much Work and Travel
' Wrote:Ah but your not paying attention.. In real life it wouldn't be a guy coming up claiming to be an 'independent US army soldier' he would simply BE a US soldier. Yes, RM has a leader. However, that leader isn't the leader of the ENTIRE NPC RM.
Occam's Razor. You are presenting a needlessly complicated solution relying upon the existence of 2 identically named organisations, one of which is subordinate to the other. In real life, subordinate sections of militaries are named things like the "100th Battlegroup" or in Navies the "4th Fleet" or in Air Forces "Echelon Wing.". Either these mystery men who supposedly control the mystery RM are idiots with no foresight to see calling a subsection after an overall structure would result in linguistic confusion, or said mystery men and mystery RM don't exist.
If you are going to argue Sirius doesn't have the same types of organisation we do (which, in at least the case of Liberty and the Outcast Armed Forces, is disproven by the existence of the 552nd and the 66th), would you say it is logical or consistent that Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars was merely the head of a subsection within an identically named organisation called the Empire headed over by an unknown Emperor.
' Wrote:There would inevitably someone above him.
Again, Occam's Razor. You are assuming that there is a Gottkanzler and a Kanzler, despite the fact that the Gottkanzler has unilaterally spoke as the Kanzler of House Rheinland many times before. Furthermore, you have provided no evidence for your assertion that there would inevitably be someone above him. Not to mention the fact that the Gottkanzler is worshipped by Rheinland's state religion, the Kirche die Grunnen Alders. Why wouldn't they put their *deity* at the highest post?
' Wrote:Just because your a PC faction with the name and affiliation to match the NPC faction doesn't mean you control it and only people who are in your faction are that NPC faction.
I don't know about you, but when I see an organisation called (for example) the US Navy headed over by a Fleet Admiral, I'd assume that's the naval forces of the United States. I'm sure most other people would, as well. The administrators continue to allow the existence of factions with unilateral names and ranks.
' Wrote:Once they have the ID and tag, they ARE that faction. Not 'independent US army soldier' just a US army soldier. They have ID so now they are impersonating? I'll go off the beaten tracks of diplomatic speaking and say what that is; Stupid. Idiotic.
If someone killed a General and stole his uniform, does that bestow upon the killer the rank of General? You are assuming IDs magically grant legitimacy, (while providing absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your claim) when they don't in RP (otherwise it wouldn't be illegal to wear the uniforms of soldiers in most circumstances) and by server rules (since the admins allow the existence of unilateral factions.)
' Wrote:Anyone with a Zoner ID and tag is a Zoner. Not independent Zoner while TAZ are the only Zoners. He is simply a Zoner. We only use independent to describe people who simply aren't in the PC faction. But that description was never meant to say, and should never mean, that those people simply aren't that faction. If someone wants to play as an RM VHF, he has that right, and the RM PC faction does NOT have the right to tell him otherwise. If I do find that RM go and say; "You can't be RM IDd/Tagged unless your in our faction" then I WOULD go to admins, even to Igiss if need be, as its a complete abuse of power and disregards the rights of the players. This is a game, not a powergrab.
A strawman argument, which I have debunked countless times. I have never, ever stated that I believed that all factions should shut out independents. I have repeatedly and clearly stressed in previous threads regarding this subject that I believe that military/police factions have the RIGHT (not the duty. I have no issue with Unseelie's policy towards BAF, for example), which is backed by the fundamental structure and behaviour of real world militaries towards the overall composition of roleplay as a member of a military to impose such restrictions. I do not support nor believe that any non-police/military faction has the right to do so nor that the administators should pick sides in this issue.
Please provide evidence for your claim of "rights". If you want to cite the RM ID, you should take that up with the administrators.
![[Image: Banner-Final.gif]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm70/Praetyre/Banner-Final.gif)
![[Image: Tenacity.gif]](https://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/Tenacity.gif)
![[Image: DFinal.png]](http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/Luciaden/DFinal.png)
![[Image: SCRAgenderheuristics.png]](http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd343/sovfalcon/SCRAgenderheuristics.png)