Zone 21 / Alaska rule Enforcement

[Dab]

For this example I'll use AW's ID. In case you had any disillusions, we are and always have been a military organization with a clear rank structure and policies.

Price: 75000 - Asgard Warriors ID
Pilot carrying this ID is a member of Asgard Warriors (AW). AW ID grants its owner right to trade, escort traders, hunt pirates and terrorists, fulfil bounty contracts, participate in military operations on lawful side, engage lawful ships as long as RP status allows to do so. AW ID owner cannot pirate or commit acts of terrorism.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
Carrying unmounted IDs in your ship, as well as not equipping an ID, is a serious crime. Using player faction IDs is not allowed for players who are not members of appropriate faction and for players who were expelled from the faction.

Price: 50000 - Rheinland Military ID
Pilot carrying this ID has joined the Rheinland Military. Navy ID grants its owner right to participate in military operations on lawful side, hunt pirates and terrorists, scan traders for contraband, and trade. Navy ID owner cannot participate in any unlawful actions and fulfil bounty contracts.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
Carrying unmounted IDs in your ship, as well as not equipping an ID, is a serious crime.

Is there something mission? Something about having to be in the player faction to have the ID? Something perhaps bolded in the first? I think its pretty clear that you can have the RM ID with or without the RM PC faction's permission, allowance, or blessing. In fact, you could have it and completely ignore the RM, as thats your right allowed by the ID. There are no rules here on forums that say you have to be in a PC faction either.. So what exactly says they must be in RM to be an NPC RMd IDd/Tagged Wrath? Where does it say that RM may fine/kill someone simply for using the ID they use, but do not own?

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[Praetyre]

I do not support nor believe that any non-police/military faction has the right to do so nor that the administators should pick sides in this issue.

Bolded for emphasis.

I never argued that the administrators should support this or oppose this. I've pointed to the fact they've A. Not intervened in this at all and B. Allowed the existence of unilaterally named factions.

It is not the administrators job to enforce House law. That's the role of House players. I don't, nor will I ever support the administrators lending direct support of the RM/other factions on this matter nor have I ever argued for such a thing. I might point out that Jinx, another person I have argued with on this issue, stated that she had private messaged Fellow Hoodlum and he stated that the RM's policy was not forbidden.

There's no server rule saying you can't carry cardamine, nor should there be. I am saying that this is something self consistent and legal for a unilaterally named military or police faction to implement, not that the administrators should take sides on this issue.

The derivation of such policies not being forbidden by server rules is on 3 points of evidence;
1. The oversight of administrators in the RM, who haven't objected.
2. The oversight of other administrators, who haven't objected, and one of which has stated by an RM critic to have even said he has no objections.
3. The continued existence of unilaterally named factions, the only logical conclusion of which lends itself to this sort of policy for roleplay self consistency

Complain to the admins for their oversight or allowance (which doesn't equate to approval) of these policies, and of unilaterally named factions.

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[pchwang]

People, I don't think that this is an argument over RP or anything else.

If you look at Liberty, there are independent capital ships. There are also independent LSF characters.

This is not balking against the SA/LSF. This is balking against the need to produce some kind of viable RP before buying a capital ship, or the need to PM someone in the SA for the ability to go through Alaska to get a LSF ID.

To conclude my argument against this proposition for laziness...

I will quote Dab's signature:

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[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<

Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?

[Praetyre]

Indeed. "Independent Militaries" are largely shortcuts for people who either lack understanding of the concept of a COC or want to have their cake and eat it too by trying to RP a COC-less military, or who want that capship right away.

Also, my advice; roleplay a member of the House *Armies*. These are badly underused and present an interesting roleplay opportunity, particularily with ground vehicles. It fulfils a niche, allows you to roleplay as military, and keeps things consistent.

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[Xing]

Praetyre is right - you have no idea how roleplaying "army" leader can be advantageous.
Still, a suggestion to all indie, is to often check the affiliated pc faction message dumps, and see how things work around. After all, they are the official ones, and as such, should always have a certain power over you, want it or not.
After all, when you decided to pick a roleplay server, you should be ready to sacrifice some gameplay for it - a game where words can be as powerful as guns always bring such problems.

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[Tenacity]

Forget it, the [SA] and =LSF= are too stubborn and ignorant to see that what they're doing is making this game less enjoyable for everyone they dont let into those factions.

In their minds, anyone without their tag isnt good enough to play on this server as a member of the liberty government or military branches. That's fine with me, I left liberty to join the order and I dont intend to rescent that - I'd much rather be part of a faction that has half the players and twice the RP ability and respect for fellow players.

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[Dusty Lens]

I was having a conversation with Praetyre on this subject, and before he became bored with my unintelligible mumblings and feeble sputters of indignation I had the following two cents to shed:

I understand where he's coming from. I do believe that official house factions should be the ones to dictate the terms and laws of the land. They've worked to establish that right for themselves by representing a unified player base with the means to acquire it and maintain it. The SA, for example, may declare that capital class warships of any faction are not tolerated in Manhattan orbit and will be shot down.

No independent could make such a proclamation, it's not within his authority.

However, while we're on the subject of wishing to have one's cake and eat it too, I would say that the game provides me with the tools to login, acquire an ID and equipment which is fitting with that ID and then perform the role associated with it.

The idea that the SA could then point at Liberty Navy ID Guardian decked out with proper kit and flyin about doing my Navy thing, declare it an impostor and open fire simply because I'm lacking a faction tag is preposterous and smacks of that same fascism that has been so readily applied those who reckon on a somewhat more casual style of play.

There is the idea of roleplay and there is the idea of suspension of disbelief. But if your belief is suspended so lightly that it crumbles to pieces afor your very eyes at the idea of a player wishing to man up a fighter and enjoy his evening shooting at some baddens sans a specific faction affiliation, I would say that you're wrong.

To conclude, there are two sides to this argument and both have valid points. The error is in proclaiming that one side or the other is the absolute truth. The you -cannot- play a naval character without being in that faction is not good form. Likewise that the official faction shave -no- ability to sway what happens in their home is also absurd.

Balancing that out is what allows people to explore the game, grow in it and keep the various cogs and wheels 'o RP spinning.

-Fin

P.S. Comments such as "The SA has no such rights because it is the -SA-" and other such nitpickings whilst ignoring the spirit of the post will be met with floggings with bags of flax.

[Praetyre]

I'd say there is a fundamental SOD break here. The notion that Entity A (independent player) is supposedly part of Entity B (Rheinland Military) and yet has no authorization to do so from Entity B's leaders and chain of command and not being a part of Entity B's chain of command is illogical and immersion-breaking. It's like the LSF not being able to stop smugglers in New York when PVP was off.

I am in favour of total self consistency, and don't believe a military or police faction MUST create or enforce such regulation save if it is a unilaterally named one. If you would like to petition the administrators, as I have suggested before, to prohibit the creation or use of unilateral faction names, then go ahead.

With all due respect, calling something 'fascist' or 'unfair' or 'preposterous' is a subjective exclamatory adjective, not an argument backed by logic or evidence, which is what is used in debates.

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[Tenacity]

I'd say there is a fundamental SOD break here. The notion that Entity A (independent player) is supposedly part of Entity B (Rheinland Military) and yet has no authorization to do so from Entity B's leaders and chain of command and not being a part of Entity B's chain of command is illogical and immersion-breaking. It's like the LSF not being able to stop smugglers in New York when PVP was off.

With all due respect, calling something 'fascist' or 'unfair' or 'ridiculous' is a subjective exclamatory adjective, not an argument backed by logic or evidence, which is what is used in debates.

Except when entity a - the mentioned 'independent' - is doing his job according to the pre-established rules of the house government he works for.

When I was an indie LSF, I was stopping smugglers, keeping people out of zone 21, going after pirates - all the same things the SA / LSF SHOULD be doing, but usually dont because they sit at manhattan all day long groaning about people being OORP and harassing traders that have given no cause for such treatment.

I wasnt running around like a maniac with my own agenda, I set up a patrol route from the texas jump gate to zone 21, then to battleship missouri and back, and I stuck to that route keeping order and law there. And then the 'officials' (i.e. [SA]) decide to come along and say i'm and independent and have absolutely no authority in liberty, and that I should be shot on sight because I didnt join their little cult.

Again, they're doing nothing but forcing themselves and their self-proclaimed authority on other players who are doing nothing to harm RP or the server.

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[Praetyre]

Please provide me evidence of the 'pre-established rules' you are appealing to. And I fail to see the value of terms like 'little cult' to this debate. I am staying civil, you should too.

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