(12-22-2016, 10:18 PM)Foxglove Wrote: I once told myself that I wouldn't participate in ooRP forums, and I have to admit that I violated that. I'd like to apologize for having fanned the flames in this pointless thread. The case is with the admins and will be decided by them, probably. I would like to apologize to Divine as I'm sure he invested much time into this thread and everything surrounding it. That is all.
It's not that easy. First you called this thread, where some valid concerns had been raised, useless. Second you left the decision up to the admins which is the ultimate call for people who're unwilling to settle things otherwise. But be my guest.
Posts: 3,369
Threads: 294
Joined: Dec 2009
Staff roles: Server Administrator
Regardless of the last dozen pages of discussion (which really would've been more appropriate for Skype [or Discord, pls switch, Skype is absolute garbo]), it's my personal opinion that restrictions on what kind of roleplay is and isn't allowed (excluding ensuring lore consistency; no more alien species, please) is ridiculous and nigh-impossible to justify. If you're so worried about cloakers, simply get a cloak disruptor and be paranoid. It's not fair (cloaks are more useful), but neither is life, and (good, realistic, and immersive) roleplay shouldn't be, either. Good roleplay is creative, and ingenuity is the child of hardship. Running to "the rules" when roleplay doesn't go how you want it to is an indication that you don't belong here.
Edit: In brief, good roleplay is facilitated by an environment where "yes, and..." or "yes, but..." is the default reaction, not "did you fill out the proper forms first?", and this whole thread illustrates how restrictions upon intelligence gathering while cloaked, an excellent example of the latter sort of environment, is problematic.
@Petitioner So I'm to sacrifice a crucial slot on my VHF for something situational and otherwise utterly useless, not to speak of it's restricted use even when a cloaked ship is around?
And you tell me going for the rules is a weak move when there's been blatant rule violations everyone just likes to ignore bc "reasons"? So people should ignore any rule violation and rules at all for the sake of "RP" even when it's absolutely powergaming a specific person or group? That's basically what you said, to get rid of the rules.
//Edit: I also like how you just posted something instead of answering the one question aimed at the dev-team. Way to go. Good job.
(12-23-2016, 01:34 AM)Divine Wrote: @Petitioner So I'm to sacrifice a crucial slot on my VHF for something situational and otherwise utterly useless, not to speak of it's restricted use even when a cloaked ship is around?
And you tell me going for the rules is a weak move when there's been blatant rule violations everyone just likes to ignore bc "reasons"? So people should ignore any rule violation and rules at all for the sake of "RP" even when it's absolutely powergaming a specific person or group? That's basically what you said, to get rid of the rules.
Were fewer rules and more player action required to effect change in Discovery, FR5s (especially those reported with evidence obtained in an unsavory manner) and other such admin actions would be largely unnecessary.
If we limited the rules to speaking in character (sans slurs and swears), not F1ing from combat or other roleplay situations, and not cheating, things would pretty much work themselves out. You wouldn't have to worry about getting busted by the administration, but you would face consequences from the faction(s) which discover your misgivings.
You would have to "waste" a crucial spot on your VHF for a situational piece of equipment if you wanted to spot cloakers, yes, but then it becomes a legitimate game mechanic without rules and sanctions needing to be involved. Intelligence operations by entity A can reasonably be expected to meet a counterintelligence response by entity B. If you don't care to deal with cloakers, you wouldn't have to.
Reducing ZOI restrictions won't cause any more weirdness than the current rules. There are already LPI-IFF'd Behemoths cruising through Languedoc and Titans flying around with stashes of Cardamine in Hamburg, but removing the rule means there's no expectation to report them. If they're in the wrong place and you're playing a character who has some authority over that, deal with it in the game. Escort them out or blow them up.
Surely roleplay can be good and roleplay can be bad, and there would no doubt be people who would attempt to exploit a smaller set of rules, but when the players can, through their actions in-game, be allowed to police what formerly was deigned to administrators, a good example can be set at the same time as the ne'er-do-wells are punished.
I am of the opinion that your faction's punishment should be reversed. Evidence acquired in bad faith should be thrown out. Had the NC used an NC ship to spy upon the 101st, it would be fine. Despite the player link between the NC and the Oracle|s, it cannot fairly be used as a substitute for an in-character link. If the method of transmission in-character does not exist or should not under normal circumstances be enough to sway the necessary parts of the command structure of a faction, then whatever collected data exists is patently useless.
At the very least, a record of such transaction of information should be made evident in a roleplay thread of some variety, if for nothing else but as a cite-able source.
But as for having fewer rules, there would be fewer lines to cross and reports to file, and the individual freedoms of players would flourish.
Posts: 3,369
Threads: 294
Joined: Dec 2009
Staff roles: Server Administrator
(12-23-2016, 01:28 AM)Bloodl1ke Wrote: @Petitioner
Then it should at least be uniform across all factions and IDs.
Absolutely.
(12-23-2016, 01:34 AM)Divine Wrote: //Edit: I also like how you just posted something instead of answering the one question aimed at the dev-team. Way to go. Good job.
I don't know what question you're referring to, and whatever it is, there's a high probability I'm not qualified to answer it, especially since I don't remember it after reading through the entire thread. Regardless, I was attempting to answer the original post, and only tangentially respond to anything else occurring within the thread.
(12-23-2016, 02:08 AM)Grumblesaur Wrote: I am of the opinion that your faction's punishment should be reversed. Evidence acquired in bad faith should be thrown out. Had the NC used an NC ship to spy upon the 101st, it would be fine. Despite the player link between the NC and the Oracle|s, it cannot fairly be used as a substitute for an in-character link. If the method of transmission in-character does not exist or should not under normal circumstances be enough to sway the necessary parts of the command structure of a faction, then whatever collected data exists is patently useless.
What?
Okay, now let's imagine you're flying around with a character that is normally logged as roleplay character of [FACTION X] but since you are not logging for pewpew in the very moment, you logged your roleplay character's private ship, with Freelancer/Zoner ID. You come across a situation that would have come handy if you were logged with your faction character. However, inRP, since it's the same character but on another ship, you suddenly can't use the evidence, because you didn't log the right ship in the right moment, while it is exactly the same character? Like, that character can watch something but a magical barrier prevents it from sharing that data? Do you imply the roleplay character would have to be like "Oh no, I'm flying the wrong ship, so I can't take photos or record the audio, damn it! I should switch my ship and come back later!"?
That's stupid, and that would be exactly one of that kind of "Verschlimmbesserung" that I'd want to prevent, desperately. The roleplay character that got the information is still the same character, and it required that character to share this information with the leading member of the NC anyway. Are people really complaining about someone using the wrong ship, while knowing it is the same person?
But let's roll with that. Now people claim the evidence is 'fishy' or what else it was called during the ridiculous amounts of posts this thread made yesterday. Looking at it from the ooRP perspective, the necessary and justifying effort for it was done: People were flying ingame to aquire the information, people shared the information with the people who are responsibility and the latter made a decision based on what was given. (Let's not forget, the NC is still an unlawful faction, that with the current rules regarding evidence, is not required to have a situation happening in certain areas to use it as evidence.)
Looking at in from the inRP perspective, what people could claim is that the informant - and let's be frank here, it's absolutely of no matter what tag the informant was using. It's the same person and the evidence is less fishy than the inRP behavior of the in the evidence shown people - inRP may have just waited for this situation to happen. Oh boy, how dare that person. What people inRP could claim is that the informant managed to manipulate the person in responsibility. Sure, why not? Intrigues are a part of Freelancer since "Is that a Rheinland Cruiser?". What people inRP could claim is that the person in responsibility did not make the right decision or a rushed one or one that wasn't investigated enough to ensure this was a very well made decision.
There is much potential in dealing with this entire thing inRP.
Yet Divine admits he can't be arsed to deal with it ingame, as he claims there were oh-so-many rule violations in the process of making this FR5. The problem is, literally all arguments of Divine are based on quotes from another threads of different situations that are not related to what happened here. Looking at what happened, NC followed the rules by their exact wording.
What where the raised points?
NC can't take information from a member that is also a member of the Oracles? Because the ship used to get the information was not an NC ship? That is just a stupid attempt to nullify the gathered information, because people even admitted they can't be arsed to do conspiracy the right way - which includes not talking in public about the conspiracy, not ensuring there are no unwanted listeners, not ensuring they are in a not-very-often-visited place. To me, this looks like Divine is tryharding to have other people suffer from his own lack of know-how on doing things the right way, in this situation.
Seriously, if we get forced to make our roleplay characters more stupid than we are in real life, that would be the most pathetic display. That's not what an RP server should ever be.
The gathered information itself is pretty much definite and obvious. That shouldn't even be questionable. The evidence was shared with the right person, and de facto it's only different from Skorak's policework in Liberty in the fact that the NC is not a lawful faction and thus has no institutions to ensure the fairness of inRP made decisions like any lawful house has. Controlling instances. One could blame them therefor, inRP.
Given how long and desperate this entire discussion went on, and regarding that the only counterarguments are based on quotes taken out of context of other cases that are not related to this one, some of them not even the slightest, while other evidence had an entire different meaning of terminology, all I see is a very desperate attempt on nullifying the FR5, and to me it looks more like it's not because of the consequences to face but rather to go against everything that was said to support the act. It literally reminds me of the usual town councils, where one guy is constantly quoting the bible to support his arguments, while the situations of the bible itself have not the slightest connection or relevance with the actual case.
![[Image: gamer5000.gif]](https://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/gamer5000.gif)
