Ballistics (missiles/mines/etc)

[Jinx]

about cap missile speed... its a lot about perception. - fighter missiles "look" faster cause you are much closer to them when you fire them, and they have a trail that suggests speed.

capital ship missiles are indeed faster.. - but when one fires them ( well, except for the BHG gunship ) - the distance to the ship is much greater. and they have a smoketrail that does not suggest high speed. ( like the rheinland engines that look like they are just puffing out little clouds of smoke instead of thrusting the gases out - or the funny impulse rings on the liberty ships... they never look like they go "fast" )

if capital ship missiles had the same trails as for example CDs, they d look much faster of course. a little cosmetic change can make everyone "feel" the speed of a missile much more than actually increasing the speed.

@mjolnir:

allthough i am a great supporter of improving missiles... i think 250 on battleship missiles could be a bit too much. - but thats just a feeling, something like that would have to be tested extensivly.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[me_b_kevin]

@mjolnir: Sure, Cap Ship missiles home on a traget at close to fighter missile speeds, but when do BCs and Cruisers thrust towards a fighter target?

Usually they stay still in Turret View and fire

you beat me to what i was going to post next. :P

i've not tried gunboats with missile turrets, i'd say they could be very effective. On cruisers and larger though it's much less effective, trust me i tried it for a long time. my Destroyer could lay waste to NPC's that flew straight at me and didn't evade but if they were anything but....missage. and during the months i had my missile turrets i'm fairly certain i never scored a hit on a fighter with a missile.

the bigger capships turn too slow to be able to thrust toward a fighter except maybe in the initial engagement pass. the only way to turn toward a fighter is to thrust away, engine kill, and then turn. problem with that is that your forward speed then makes the missile travel at slow-mo speed.

perhaps serperate missile turrets should be made for larger capships, leave the current ones for the gunboats and reinvent the larger ones?

all i suggest is a speed upgrade, tracking seems like it'd be harder to do with the lag and you'd probably still have to retarget anyway. a simple speed upgrade wouldn't over power them in my opinion. i'm just trying to undo the negative effects caused by engine kill in combat.

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Mon'Star the Red- Rated "R" : http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3224
Aboard the Necrosis- Rated "E": http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3313

[mjolnir]

Problem is there are a few cruisers that turn reasonably fast to e-kill turn around and fire missiles just as you hit the thruster towards the enemy.

Flying backwards on e-kill and shooting missiles don't work extremely well, but it still keeps the bombers/fighters busy dodging.

The BS missiles was just an almost random number. Point was that BS can't e-kill turn and thrust + fire missiles. Which means they are less effective and a speed increase might be in place.


EDIT: Also while GBs are meant as anti-fighter/bomber. Cruisers and BS are not meant for that.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[McNeo]

The lacklustre performance of cruiser missiles is due to the cruiser stats themselves, not the pilot nor the stats on the missiles... At least, that is my perception.

A while back, before the deletion of my nice BHG Destroyer, the two missiles with four tertiaries and two inferno's worked quite well on just about everything except a battleship. Of course, I couldn't do the same damage as I could in a gunboat with six guns, but thats not what a destroyer is for. Besides, if persuaded to do some maneuvers, some cruisers can come out on top against a pair of good fighter pilots.

I've actually found that cruisers as they are now work best as light artillery vessels, though long range artillery lies thin on the ground here at disco. Direct combat just isn't where the cruiser class excels at all, which is why in my opinion, they feel underpowered.

Gunboat missiles are indeed very effective. Even against the best pilots who fly non-vanilla ships, they are a real threat. It took three IND fighters to chase away my Corsair gunboat once (left with half a bar of hull T_T) piloted by the cream of the crop. Since that level of concentrated skill lies only in a few factions nowadays, it would not seem unreasonable for the stats as they stand to be capable of taking out, in short order, less skilled pilots on a larger scale. These do deserve a nerf, but I would say make them take even more energy and decrease their rate of fire. I would be against giving capital ship missiles an ammo limit, because capital ships have far more space to store ammunition.

BS missiles do need an upgrade in terms of speed now. As of now, they are only good as a gun screen to confuse your enemy's targetting reticule, not as an actual offensive weapon. Even on their intended targets, fighters, they cannot hope to keep up or score a hit on all but the greenest pilot.

Anyway, thats what I think on the matter....:unsure:

[mjolnir]

These do deserve a nerf, but I would say make them take even more energy and decrease their rate of fire. I would be against giving capital ship missiles an ammo limit, because capital ships have far more space to store ammunition.

Well I don't think they need a nerf... the only thing is that there should be a way to limit their number to reasonable. Because GB with 6 misiles is as close to the "I win" ship + gun configuration against fighters/bomber as you can get.

GB with 2 is difficult to kill for fighters but reasonable.

So either make them use more energy.. but with the current GB energy recharge rate you would have to up the energy use like 4 times...

or make them use ammo.

or make them a separate gun class mountable only on 2 slots.

And you know as good as me that there are at least 3 GBs that have size very close to bomber. So the "space to store ammo" doesn't quite work on GBs.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[McNeo]

Okay, three gunboats are bomber sized...

However, the vast majority are gunboat sized. So yeah, space to store ammo does work, if you think about the fact that a Claw can store 8x70= 560 missiles plus 70 torpedoes

Then again, we should also agree on the fact that the ammo constant is also screwed up, as if the above were true then real logic would dictate that I could store 630 cannonball missiles on my fighter, which I can't. So you can see that the ammo constant isn't really in keeping with real ammunition space in a ship.

Considering these figures, even the smallest gunboats should be able to store 1000 missiles, right? And what about the largest, such as the Corsair gunboat or Dragon gunboat? These must be at least three times again the size of the Kusari gunboat and the Bounty Hunter gunship, so could they store 3000 missiles?

If you follow one path of the computer logic set out by the developers, then yes.

If you follow another set out by RP, which is what we aim for, then perhaps. It depends on how your specific RP works; which is why we will have fundamental debates about balance, because we all percieve different balance.


Mjolnir, you know as well as I do that a 6 missile loadout, if it can be fired at all, takes up the whole gunboat powerplant while leaving the pilot extremely vulnerable to every type of capital ship. Said pilots who use this loadout sacrifice all their power against capital classes to concentrate their effectiveness against fighters and bombers. Even then, two bombers with their CMs active and a competant pilot at the respective wheels should make light work of said gunboat. Its a trade, and I believe it to be a fair one if you take into consideration what you may come up against with such a specialised loadout.

I do believe that missile problems could be alleviated completely if the refire of the missiles were reduced. Using more energy just creates a problem whereby in the future, those who fire guns may run out of energy. Ammunition just makes it more tedious to fight when you undock to find you forgot to go to the equipment dealer to stock up on your missiles.

Refire would target only the problem of missile spammage while leaving the other factors unaffected, and I believe this the way to go....

[sovereign]

You know what I would like? A real BOMB. Either an energy mine that only bombers/SHFs can drop, or something like the Nova Torp but with enough energy drain it can only be fired well on bombers. Put the damage level to "scary" and it will make Gunboats a serious counter to bombers, but bombers a terrifying threat to larger ships- IF they can get close. I think that would help get bombers to their original intended purpose, and it would be fun to see the poor sucker who flew into an energy mine:D

Oh yeah, having a shieldbuster mine would be cool too.

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[mjolnir]

Mjolnir, you know as well as I do that a 6 missile loadout, if it can be fired at all, takes up the whole gunboat powerplant while leaving the pilot extremely vulnerable to every type of capital ship. Said pilots who use this loadout sacrifice all their power against capital classes to concentrate their effectiveness against fighters and bombers. Even then, two bombers with their CMs active and a competant pilot at the respective wheels should make light work of said gunboat. Its a trade, and I believe it to be a fair one if you take into consideration what you may come up against with such a specialised loadout.

I do believe that missile problems could be alleviated completely if the refire of the missiles were reduced. Using more energy just creates a problem whereby in the future, those who fire guns may run out of energy. Ammunition just makes it more tedious to fight when you undock to find you forgot to go to the equipment dealer to stock up on your missiles.

Refire would target only the problem of missile spammage while leaving the other factors unaffected, and I believe this the way to go....

Actually not...

turrets/energy
basic: 40k 6*basic= 240k.... damage: 19200/9600
liberty/rh: 50k = 300........21000/10500
bretonia/kusari: 60k = 360k...27000/13500
dragonfly: 100k = 600k...30000/15000

GB powerplant: 500k/ 65k recharge

So most of them eat just around half the powerplant. The GB powerplant recharges fastest of all those around and if you are jousting you have the power to fire at least 4 missiles on every joust. Also why would you mount 6? If you can mount say 4 to have the same effect and you can fire the 2 normal turrets while you energy rockets up anyway.

Now the 6 missile salvo from all but basic turrets only blasts a 11k shield on first hit... kills any vanilla ship on second and shots off all guns from all non-vanilla on second as well. If you mount some 4 you only need some 2 hits with normal guns to take down the rest of the shield. Also you can fire them as 1-2-3-4 separately and here comes the problem... he will run out of CMs, you won't run out of missiles , fair heh?

I have fought those "fair" ships often enough thank you. When me and chopper with Falcatas (2x SN, Inferno, CD, 4 Imp. Debs, 4 Hullbusters) have big problems taking down a gb like that (one of us lost all guns I believe, and both all shield batteries, oh and it was laggy so half his missiles got lost and he had only basic ones). I do think it's too much. Problem with CMs is that they don't work if the missiles are fired while jousting under 200ms. If you want to test it we can meet tomorrow and have a go.

I don't agree with the "it's hopeless against caps" argument. Because if you look around no other class of ship with any loadout is invincible to two ships from another class (a nearby class that would be - so no 2 LFs vs BS). And what's more the skill needed to be invincible is mostly about finding out when to push the one button.

Refire won't solve the problem, even if you make it half of what it's now you can still fire them on every joust (since GB turns slowly). And that is all you need.

I still think that there are only 2 ways out:

- Separate Missile class slots
- Ammo

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Spear]

I got to agree with Mjolnir regarding GB's and larger missile turrets, to often these days I just get spammed with missiles from Cap ships with unlimited ammo and it becomes a hopeless cause. I can survive longer than most against this but with unlimited ammo being fired upon you its all but impossible to even mount a defense against the fighter escorts, even when you pull the fighter escorts away from there missile barrage caps 9 times out of 10 they just engage cruise and jump right back on top of you and resume spam. I've seen it too often now that it's become something that needs to be addressed, I'm for missile turetts having ammo limitations.

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=LSF=

[Dantrithor]

About the missile turrets "overpower", this will be a mix of "raw" data and opinions.

Because of certain causes, "Edward Morris" uses a LH gunship 6 missile turrets. In that ship, you can not attack anything over a bomber. Anything, and that includes transports, as if the explossion blast doesnt hit the shield hardpoint, it does zero damage.

But a against fighters/bombers, its a completely different story. I have been able to keep at distance 5 fighters/bombers (though, receiving damage and having to flee after killing two) without too many problems. But, if a capital ship appears, no matter what capital ship or what loadout (unless its all missiles too), you have to either run, and fast, or wait till you are killed. Even transports could kill you given enough time as you wouldnt be able to harm them.

The ammo limitation would make the missiles in gunboats (my experience) nerfed versions of the ones in fighters. You would have a lower damage missile, with limited ammo, and if you use the typical 2 missile turrets, "only" 35 shots if you group them.

Energy... actually, 6 basic missile launchers almost kill your energy bank completely. 4 basic + 2 dragonfly put your energy bank at zero (so next volley you can fire only 2-3 basic, and that's the fire you can keep if you fly non-stop). And about the...

Refire won't solve the problem, even if you make it half of what it's now you can still fire them on every joust (since GB turns slowly). And that is all you need.

And why are you jousting in a bomber a ship which, with full standard guns, in one second would obliterate your shields and hit a good chunk of your hull? isnt it much better to stay on its side? you force turret view a.k.a. straight movement, while whoever is with you can attack from the other side. If you complain because you joust gunboats, well, complain about jousting destroyers too. After all, you're using that fighter tactic on something much bigger.

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