Improve Presentation of Discovery's Rules

[Karlotta]

That's because you're re-enforcing yourself with circular logic.

You say "you don't agree and you are totally wrong", and then take the fact that I don't agree with you as proof of what you say is true.

I wonder who will actually fall for that, or pretend to.

Also, you're only speaking for some of the community, not "the community".

And you're also neglecting that I (and others) have tried multiple paths to do this before, some of which you're possibly not aware of (pretty please, invisible player request submissions as asked, skype conversations, and multiple attempts of getting actual constructive criticism).

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[Omi]

very interesting thread

I agree with protégé

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[Kosa]

I have no problems with rules as they are now. Some grey zones exist sometimes but they have been successfully minimized over time IMO. As far as word usage goes (if enough people have problems with it) I'd suggest we find an enthusiastic lawyer/lawyer student playing disco and ask him/her to make the rules more accurate and easy to understand.

About grey zones: I believe they will exist in any rule system containing at least a dozen rules. You know there are certain situations in life itself when two parties are having a debate while both of them are right! That's when you need a judge and lawyers. This current system works really well here in disco!

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[Toris]

I think we really should cleanse this thread from the posts that are not constructive response to the overall idea about the rules - and make it to be replied by Admins/Mods/Staff only. There is a part of this community which is not really adult enough to reason over ideas that have good points, even if they are delivered in a way that can be misunderstood by some.

[Laz]

And you're also neglecting that I (and others) have tried multiple paths to do this before, some of which you're possibly not aware of (pretty please, invisible player request submissions as asked, skype conversations, and multiple attempts of getting actual constructive criticism).

Perhaps me and @Dino should dump our skype logs with you here. They would be very enlightening to everyone, I'm sure. Perhaps you should take a step back and actually read what you write, as well as what others write. You don't seem to notice there is any issue with your approach to issues or your overall attitude to the Admins/Devs/and community on the whole. The Devs and Admins run a job that is generally all around thankless enough - the last thing they need is someone berating and criticising them for not implementing the ideas of said person.

Go back and read your messages. They are hardly respectful to anyone other than yourself. You will get no support with that attitude. Oh and to actually comment on the thread we are discussing this in, not everything needs to be changed. The Admins have tried changes in the past where the rules were radically reformed and look how that went. *Looks at appeals system in particular*.

Anyway, with that all said, I think I'm done. I'm not here to rant or throw fecal matter over the walls of the forum, just stating my viewpoint (since my name was brought up a couple of times).

I think we really should cleanse this thread from the posts that are not constructive response to the overall idea about the rules - and make it to be replied by Admins/Mods/Staff only. There is a part of this community which is not really adult enough to reason over ideas that have good points, even if they are delivered in a way that can be misunderstood by some.

Yes more censorship. Exactly what this community needs more of. There is very little to misunderstand about this thread, but you have misunderstood while people are posting. It's the person behind the proposed change, not the change itself. If a mod wants to move everything to Karlotta's feedback thread, that would be more appropriate. Also not to be "that guy", but you are hardly one to talk about acting adult.

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[Karlotta]

And you're also neglecting that I (and others) have tried multiple paths to do this before, some of which you're possibly not aware of (pretty please, invisible player request submissions as asked, skype conversations, and multiple attempts of getting actual constructive criticism).

Perhaps me and @Dino should dump our skype logs with you here. They would be very enlightening to everyone, I'm sure. Perhaps you should take a step back and actually read what you write, as well as what others write. You don't seem to notice there is any issue with your approach to issues or your overall attitude to the Admins/Devs/and community on the whole. The Devs and Admins run a job that is generally all around thankless enough - the last thing they need is someone berating and criticising them for not implementing the ideas of said person.

Go back and read your messages. They are hardly respectful to anyone other than yourself. You will get no support with that attitude. Oh and to actually comment on the thread we are discussing this in, not everything needs to be changed. The Admins have tried changes in the past where the rules were radically reformed and look how that went. *Looks at appeals system in particular*.

Anyway, with that all said, I think I'm done. I'm not here to rant or throw fecal matter over the walls of the forum, just stating my viewpoint (since my name was brought up a couple of times).

I think we really should cleanse this thread from the posts that are not constructive response to the overall idea about the rules - and make it to be replied by Admins/Mods/Staff only. There is a part of this community which is not really adult enough to reason over ideas that have good points, even if they are delivered in a way that can be misunderstood by some.

Yes more censorship. Exactly what this community needs more of. There is very little to misunderstand about this thread, but you have misunderstood while people are posting. It's the person behind the proposed change, not the change itself. If a mod wants to move everything to Karlotta's feedback thread, that would be more appropriate. Also not to be "that guy", but you are hardly one to talk about acting adult.

Go ahead and dump the skype logs in my feedback thread if you want, and post what ever else you want there. It will be a welcome occasion to explain what I said and did, and why. It's also a welcome occasion to show how history proved me right. It's also an occasion for you to look in the mirror when talking about maturity. I hope you take it. (edit maybe I'll do it myself later, I'll be busy with something else for the next few hours)

It's the person behind the proposed change, not the change itself.

And this exactly correct sentence is the tell tale of the maturity of the part of the community that has an issue with the improvements I'm pushing for.

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[Ash]

It's the person behind the proposed change, not the change itself.

And this exactly correct sentence is the tell tale of the maturity of the part of the community that has an issue with the improvements I'm pushing for.

This is very, very, very simple to grasp and you're still refusing to see it.

You think we're hurling rotten tomatoes at you to discredit your work. This is the only logical explanation for you because you cannot possibly be in the wrong. Not even a little bit.

The distinction between you and your work is irrelevent because your conduct is calling your creations into question.

Building a wall to keep out mexico is good if it's to keep out an invasion force, but bad if it's for a xenophobic minority. Same thing, different motives, and your ego is yours.

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[Karlotta]

It's the person behind the proposed change, not the change itself.

And this exactly correct sentence is the tell tale of the maturity of the part of the community that has an issue with the improvements I'm pushing for.

This is very, very, very simple to grasp and you're still refusing to see it.

I said what he said was correct, so exactly what am I refusing to see?

Maybe I should have said "the part of the community that pretends to have an issue with the improvements I'm pushing for but really just has an issue with me"?

Or do you think blocking needed improvements because you don't like the person who is making those improvements is mature and constructive behavior?

Is that behavior to be expected? It is to be expected here, yes, absolutely.

But the problem is with the people blocking the improvements, not with the people who try to do something constructive despite the fact that not everyone likes them.

There are very few people here who are universally liked, and they can't be expected to do everything on their own.

You think we're hurling rotten tomatoes at you to discredit your work.

No, I think you're hurling poop at me because you think it pleases certain people (not all of which will really be pleased by the way you do it, imho), and because you've been led to believe a few things about me because of half-truths they tell you, which seem to match my behavior from your limited perspective.

People who you think are "victims" of my ego, but who have much bigger ego issues than me, who's egos and actions are much more destructive than mine.

But you're likely not aware of that, because although you see some of my actions, together with what some people chose to tell you about me, you haven't seen or heard about all of their actions. Partly because I don't go around talking about other people behind their backs the way others do, because I think that's crappy behavior, and because some of them are children, adolescents, or people with personality problems, and therefore I cut them some slack.

In addition to that, if I told you certain things about them here, in the same way you and them talk about me (and also threaten me) here, they'd have me permabanned within seconds.

The reason why I still do and bump things even though it will dent some egos, is because these things are actually necessary and will keep coming up, like they have. I'm not the only person who's been permabanned, thrown poop at, blocked, and vilified for stepping on certain very influential and very sensitive people's toes, in case you haven't noticed.

EDIT: And to be entirely honest, I think you may also be motivated by the fact that you're part of Laz's "tutorial team" and may feel some pain in your ego because the helpmenu thing you praised here is not only late, but also vastly inferior to the help system in terms of accessibility, practicality, helpfulness, and writing style. I re-iterate my offer to help you on this, but I'm not going to help make something existing worse just because someone wants to pin their name on it.

This is the only logical explanation for you because you cannot possibly be in the wrong. Not even a little bit.

It's not the only explanation, and it's not even the explanation I gave. It's the explanation you project into my head, because you can't see, or don't want to see, another one.

The distinction between you and your work is irrelevent because your conduct is calling your creations into question.

I would like you to tell me concretely what conduct you would like to see from me.

Would you like me to grovel in submission to people who threaten, insult, and lie about me, and say they're right simply because they say I'm stubborn if I don't say I agree with the crap they're posting?

Would you like me to stop trying to fix something that keeps causing massive problems although it's easy to fix or at least mitigate, simply because some people will feel their egos ache when they see me do it instead of them, and they haven't been doing it themselves for years and show no sign of ever doing it?

Would you like me to do nothing but sing praises about how good things are, no matter how bad they really are?

Building a wall to keep out mexico is good if it's to keep out an invasion force, but bad if it's for a xenophobic minority. Same thing, different motives, and your ego is yours.

This is one of the worst (in the sense of failed) attempts at evoking a false equivalence to fling poop at someone that I've ever seen.

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[Ash]

I'm not going to spell it out for you any more than I already have.

I'm done.

This isn't a democracy, you're not the messiah, get over yourself and stop annoying people.

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[Karlotta]

I never said this was a democracy.

I never said I was the messiah.

I, just like many people who were, are, and will be here, am also annoyed at people's inability to get over themselves and fix a very important thing that requires little work to fix, especially after 99% of the work is already done for them. And I'm also annoyed by people attempting to sabotage it to the best of their ability out of petty personal reasons.

But I've remained more civil, constructive, productive, and patient about it than you have.

And all of this while I don't even know what "people" you're really speaking for, because the ones this thread is directed at said little more than "it's being discussed" and "your efforts are appreciated" during the months I was working on it. For all I know most of the people you think you're "defending" against my rampant ego don't agree with you at all on most of what you've said.

I'm asking for comments from them, not for praises, not for a full review, and not for them to accept everything without changes.

Comments that will help me improve and work on it more if needed.

I think that's not too much to ask.

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