The problem is some players want to express their power over others, even when they dont really have it.
Factions think independents are undeserving of anything above vanilla light fighters, and independents are pissed because they want to have the same rights (and should have the same rights, though I'm a bit biased) as the faction members do.
I'll use myself as an example, with my order pilot Aki.Kimura. I fly a zoner destroyer, with order tag and ID. Before I even got those ships, I had a long and detailed biography of the character and the ship both written up and posted here on the forums. I explained why I have that ship, how my character came to command that ship (she's actually second in command), and what her purpose within the order is.
Now, the biggest problem with independent players is that they -dont- do this. They dont tell the rest of the community what their intent or reasoning for their ship or faction is... so basically, nobody else knows who they are, why they're flying some big powerful vessel, or really anything else about them.
This can be fixed through in-game RP if you RP well with everyone you meet, but it takes longer to do and a lot of players will tend to ignore your RP and just rat you out for not being a faction member anyways.
If you are a non-capship independent (meaning you use a transport, fighter, or bomber) things arent so rough - factions dont pay as much attention to you because capships, whether they're practical and powerful or not, are seen as a status symbol here. They're a measure of your ability RP, and a lot of independents -have no ability to RP- despite having the ship. It's very easy to trade for a couple weeks and buy a battleship, what ISNT easy is explaining why you have that battleship beyond a reasonable doubt.
See, I'm independent because, quite honestly, I didnt want to work upwards from a fighter in black squadron. I'm an absolutely terrible fighter pilot, and they force all new recruits to use a nephthys class fighter for a month or longer before upgrading. Now... for some factions that might be ok, even if you're a bad fighter pilot... but for the order? The nomad and bounty hunter NPC's that plague omicron minor can easily tear up anything without gunboat or stronger level shields, especially if you're an inadequate pilot.
Despite being an independent, I still recognize black squadron as representative of the commanding unit of the order. If they give me orders, I follow them to a reasonable measure - most independents I see will not do that, they remain independent not because of ship restrictions, but because "they want to do what they want and have nobody to answer to for their actions". That's the biggest issue at hand, independents thinking that they can roam without a leash, they dont restrict their own characters and in the end wind up being OORP terrorists, and not respectable players.
The real source of the problem is new players. They come to the server, find out that if they save up a few million credits they can buy a cruiser or battleship, and go "WOW! AWESOME!" and never think about the RP behind such a vessel before buying it. They buy the ship for it's power and size, not for it's RP value.
In truth, I HATE my destroyer. I have turned out to be pretty good in pvp situations with it... but I just dont like the ship. It has low mass and gets bounced around a lot by the rocks in order systems, it's difficult to pilot through asteroid fields, it's a huge target and seems to lack enough firepower to really make any difference against equivalent capships. The only reason I use it at the moment is because it fits the RP story I've developed and continue to develop - that story will eventually lead to using the zoner gunboat, which according to rumors is probably going to be the weakest possible ship for pvp not counting transports/freighters.
Most independents are concerned with flaunting their Epeens and destroying all opposition in pvp, not with RP'ing. there are a lot of good indies out there (and I believe I'm a fairly good one despite how much hate I seem to pull on the forums), but they're by far outnumbered with the bad ones. There really is no solution other than restricting ships to faction guard systems so that player factions can control their distribution.
Make everything bomber level and above sold in guard systems, and the problem wont be as widespread. Any independent using a ship without faction approval can be fired upon by that faction, and sanctioned for using a ship they were not authorized to purchase. Yes, it does make things more difficult for everyone involved, but aside from removing the ships completely that's the only real solution.
' Wrote:I don't see any issue with an indepedent Liberty Rogue, but I can't see anyone roleplaying an independent Kriegsmarine.
I wonder if perhaps the conflict on that specific topic is simply coming from the definition of "independent" we're using. I've been so far using it to refer to people not in the player faction.
If someone without the [RM] tag properly acts like part of the Rheinland Military, including taking orders from superior officers with that tag, I simply will not ever see a problem, but by the above definition, that person's an independent.
I see a problem, since the Rheinland Military is the Rheinland Military. If it was meant to be a subsection of another group, they'd call it something like "39th Schwarzealders" and it'd be led by a Kapitan, or at best maybe a Vizeadmiral. As of now, it's led by two Grosseadmirals (Fleet Admirals) and the Gottkanzler himself (as commander-in-chief).
I can see people roleplaying Rheinheer (Rheinland Army, stated by Robert to have NPC leaders) and Bureau der Marineintelligence (Rheinland's equivalent to the LSF) but not the Kriegsmarine (Rheinland Navy) itself.
A problem is also, what is an "Independent RM" independent of? Rheinland is a fascist militarist state, so there's no way he'd be independent of the Oberkommando (RMHC, in English). Even relatively liberal nations like the US don't have people independent of groups like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so I don't see room for roleplay outside the Nord/sudkriegsmarine (Northern/Southern Rheinland Navy), which are under Grosseadmiral Krieg/Kaisers commands.
' Wrote:I see a problem, since the Rheinland Military is the Rheinland Military. If it was meant to be a subsection of another group, they'd call it something like "39th Schwarzealders" and it'd be led by a Kapitan, or at best maybe a Vizeadmiral. As of now, it's led by two Grosseadmirals (Fleet Admirals).
But if someone acts like part of that group, where's the issue? They take their orders, report to their commanding officers, do whatever else is necessary (I have no experience with military factions)... the only thing different is the lack of an [RM] prefix; in everything except that, they are part of the Rheinland Military.
Are those four symbols really that important?
(Edit: You edited your post while I was working on this one.)
Perhaps they're not sure if they'll stay interested in the character. If they lose interest and want to try something else that also ends up forcing them into a player faction, that faction would be (understandably) hesitant to accept the application. And there are no rules forcing factions to accept applications - which is a good thing, so long as there's no rules (save for obvious exceptions) forcing you into factions.
Edit: There's also another concern: some factions are slow to respond to applications.
If they are roleplaying anything higher than a Matrose (Private), it causes disruptions in the chain of command. How is, say, Obergefreiter (Lance Corporal) [RM]-Watz.Hisname to react when alleged Hauptefreiter (Corporal) Ran.dom.guy issues him an order? It's easier to handle with officers, since they generally have specific commisons, but when you are dealing with NCOs and enlisteds, it gets thorny, and some people roleplay in these ranks.
What you are describing sounds like an unusual and short term situation that wouldn't even last long enough to merit debate.
' Wrote:Well, if they are doing that, why not get that prefix, then? Recruitment isn't closed.
because many factions force their members to start out in low end fighters.
As was my example - I recently (a couple weeks ago) applied to join Black Squadron and shed my 'independent' status. I was told, very explicitly, that despite all the time, money, and effort I had put into my character - I would be forced to start over in a nephthys fighter, and remain in that fighter for a minimum of one month, at which point in time I would be 'allowed' to upgrade to a bomber.
Not. Happening.
I put over 120 million credits into my ship, I traded/smuggled for a week straight, wasting all of my game time with that boring role, to get that ship. I spent quite a few hours perfecting the RP story behind my character and the ship I had acquired.
They expect me to give all that up just for a Bs| tag in front of my name? Oh, and lets not forget the 2 million credits to purchas an NCC in order to join that faction.
Why would I give all of that up, when I can perform the same duties and RP outside of the faction? I work very closely with black squadron members, I join in on their RP events, I even organize and bring them into my own RP events. I follow the orders of high ranking Bs| members as if I was within their ranks, and occasionally hand out orders to low ranking (new) Bs| members in the same context.
The only problem with most independents is that they dont restrict themselves. They go 'all out' and try to powerplay, rather than giving themselves boundaries to RP within. My character has quite a bit of freedom but I always consider the consequences of my actions in-game before carrying them out. I dont go and attack some random system without considering what effect it will have on the rest of the order - both black squadron and independents.
How many players (both independant and Faction) are mature enough to restrict themselves though?
This is an RP server. FL ingame just doesnt have the capability to RP all the diplomacy. Thats what these forums are for.
I would reccomend that Forum participation (even if its is one and only one post in their entire career) be
made compulsary. I dont know how good an idea it is, but it would help some things and introduce other problems.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
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