Cruiser LM/Razor Balance Vote

[TheShooter36]

Lets enable balancemagic for all things and have VHFs be the king of the hill, right? No. with snub speeds and the ability of them to dodge %99 of things, instakills or chainfiring burst dmg is pretty much the only way to kill them unless snubs are way below average. A non-heavy bomber is nigh-unhittable until 800-900 meters while they get to snac you from 1.6k and they get to double nova in teams from 4k. Yes, flaks exists. However flaks lose their effectiveness exponentially due to FL mechanics and no one can deal with more than 2-3 nova incoming from different directions at same time, while being engaged in a cap fight themselves. VHFs are straight out unhittable until 450-500 meters. And lets not forget the fact all snubs can recover from a few solaris shots with bazillion nanos.

Restore SNAC, remove balancemagic plugin altogether, restore razors as well. A battleship can mount 2 razors at very least and has much more range and speed than cruiser razors had. Maybe tune flaks to be an effective snubcraft deterrant instead of simple projectile reflectors. 650ms flaks were good for that. Maybe bring them back at 550m/s but also increase their power usage a considerable bit more so you cannot mindlessly spam them to death, mounted on all of your secondaries?

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[The_Godslayer]

The situations that prompted me to create a discussion on this are ones where a cruiser has joined an active snub engagement, assists a potential pure-snub engagement, or assists with engaging and chasing down a lone snub.

This is a game therefore realism arguments are moot. Caps in snub engagements are not fun, and the less tools they have to ruin them, the better.

Snubs are lighter, faster, and more agile than any form of capship. If a capship moves into an active snub fight, yes, you will get zoned out if it's an anti-snub loadout. Ping your discord and call some bombers. Munch the ship into powder in like 3-4 minutes. Caps in snub engagements are the choice of the cap to change the strategy of the battlefield. The next step is to counter the cap with something else. Just ask for help. Throw a please in there, it tends to increase chances. Also, please finally learn that this isn't vanilla, and you wont be killing 5 carriers with a LF. All of you need to learn that there are tiers and levels to combat, and some cannot compete with others. Snubs can't shoot caps to death, and caps cant engage effectively in asteroid fields, and cant go as fast as snubs. Use your "detriments" to your advantage, because this just seems to be a lack of creativity on literally everyone's side.

[Thunderer]

Isn't this just a copy of the old cruiser razor stats, of the same razors that were replaced with gatlings because they were too OP? It has the same speed and damage per shot, you don't need anything else for instakilling bombers. The range is redundant, as the very goal of this is avoiding weapons that can do everything.

https://discoverygc.com/wiki/Cruiser_%22...ter_Cannon

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[Wesker]

I think you should change the vidar into a BC.

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[sasapinjic]

Isn't this just a copy of the old cruiser razor stats, of the same razors that were replaced with gatlings because they were too OP? It has the same speed and damage per shot, you don't need anything else for instakilling bombers. The range is redundant, as the very goal of this is avoiding weapons that can do everything.

https://discoverygc.com/wiki/Cruiser_%22...ter_Cannon

How come they are same ?

Old Cruiser Razor :

Hull Damage: 36,500
Shield Damage: 18,250
Range: 1,800 m
Projectile Speed: 900 m/s
Refire Rate: 0.25
Energy Usage: 230,000


New Cruiser "Razor" Proposition:

Hull Damage: 18,750
Shield Damage: 9,375
Energy Drain: 360000 (1/5th of a medium cruiser core)
Turn Rate: 90
Projectile Speed: 900 m/s
Range: 1170 m
Refire Rate: 0.50

So, new "Razor" wuld have half power of old Razor, nearly half of range and 50% more power consumption .
At same time , it wuld have double rate of fire, but that wuld be insignificent, because Razor is meant to be one hit weapon, not rapid fire one.

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[Wildkins]

lmao salty cap pilots tilted that their noob tube is at risk. Same people that were advocating for snac nerf too. Must be super comfortable when you can instakill other people but not be at risk of the same thing yourself.

lyth, chief, with all due respect, this ain't it

I and every "cap pilot" I know voted against the SNAC nerf because it was stupid, and now that it's been almost rolled back, it was revealed as such. Instakills kinda suck as a game mechanic in a game where being killed takes you out of a fight for an hour, but they suck MUCH MUCH LESS than the equivalent - chasing down a dodging SHF, for example, as it slowly runs out of its 500,000 bots and bats off the system wall. Mortars are useful for certain caps as a deterrent to bombers, keeping them dodging and at range which makes it easier (read: not impossible) to dodge some of their weapons. Ree anecdotes and all that, but I'm a somewhat prolific bomber pilot and I've eaten exactly one mortar in the history of this game, and that was when I rammed a Scylla right after the changes were made.

Just do something along the lines of what @pillow suggests and actually make it so you can balance a cap's ability to kill fighters and bombers separately. I don't think a pure scale up is the only thing you need to do, but it would probably help.

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RP Feedback

[Thunderer]

Never mind, I misread, I thought those stats were referring to the gunboat razor. Here is why having the same stats as a gunboat razor is bad for a cruiser razor:

Gunboats are small and agile. This means that the bomber has to approach closer in order to land a shot. This means that a gunboat is more likely to score a hit. A cruiser will score less hits than a gunboat while itself receiving more damage due to being easier to hit.

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[Deep Space Solutions]

Cruisers are fine the way they are, if anything i would increase the defensive capability of all caps vs snubs. LM should one shot snubs. Do you think is fair that 3 VHF's take down a cruiser? There has to be a balance, and snub fear from a one shot death. Is what makes snubs dont get to cocky when facing cruisers. And its still not fair to cruisers. Think of it realistically as well as money wise.

A snub pilot flying a VHF with best defense armor and standard faction or civ guns and equipment has to spend around 10 milion to make it.
A cruiser pilot with best armor defense and standard faction or civ guns and equipment has to spend around 1.2 bilion for its creation.

Now considering the investment, do you think is fair that 3 or even 4 good VHF's take down a cruiser?? i dont think so.

f anything i would increase the speed of ALL guns ( except for Pulses, Mortars and missles) by 50 meters/second.

Realistically, snubs should come in swarm to take down a well equipped cruiser or BC or BS, or bring an equal firepowered ship.
My 2 cents.

[Thunderer]

I think that the main issue between instakills on snubs by caps and instakills on snubs by other snubs is that from caps you can run away to restock, which renders all weapons that don't function by instakilling the snub useless. It is much harder to run away from another snub.

Restocking is indeed frowned upon, but so is shooting at snubs with caps, and we've seen that something being frowned upon rarely stops our players from doing it, even if they complain about it being done to them. So, if we wish for these two classes to interact at all, then they will have to be balanced with both players in mind and not only one.

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[Kazinsal]

Leave LMs as is, reintroduce razors.

People always talk about the good ol' days. I say sure, let's bring 'em back.

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Retired, permanently.