This, represent how I feel to be quoted and blamed during 3 pages...
OFFICIAL picture from the in-game infocard.
ORIGINAL patrols in Alaska (VANILLA).
There is nothing, No patrols, only a mission spawn area (yellow stuff)
Seee? there is NO patrols. The system Is Empty, (Base only have a deck,,,that's it too.)
In Vanilla, Alaska was a DEAD-END system; there are no reasons for the BHG to know about it
Plus, in the original SP, no one knows about the Alaska system, If I am right, it is whether Juni or King that says that in the campaign. I have tried to search for the mission about it but went Out of luck.
Also now the explanation, for the 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000th time.
LPI are not allowed in Alaska
Liberty Corporations are not allowed in Alaska
so Why in Hell Would the bounty hunter guild, made of some Ex-Criminals (see what Del said), thus non trustworthy persons, be allowed in here, but not the cops who swore oath to serve their nation? How did they come to know about it? How did they persuade the fully capable navy that they would do a better job than them? How would they get the access codes? why would Navy trust them to keep the most dangerous secrets ever, such as the Wahalla Project? Explain me that please? Try to bring me a good argument...
From Rumors on Texas, See? Nobody knows about it. And After the nomad War, I think Liberty would hide what was happening in there EVEN more than before.
Quote:Civilian listening posts reported an unusual disturbance coming from Zone 21. Despite its exaggerated reputation among conspiracy buffs as an area for so-called "secret research," navy officials say that Zone 21 is only used for legitimate weapons testing and strategic training. They had no comment at this time about the disturbance.
And For those saying:
"They want us to take the long way to go into the omicrons"
Yes, that is what LN/LSF/LPI thinks, unless you want to be considered as someone lazy not willing to take an RP route to the omicrons.
Call me an Elitist, a Factionlancer, an Idiot, a dictator, etc. I don't care. Whatever you do, as long as an admin don't tell us to change anything, LSF/LN will continue to patrol and enforce a near total lockdown on the system.
Don't worry, this will certainly be my last post. I won't waste my time in this useless discussion that will end up locked anyway.
Looks like you don't have an Argument? is that why you are asking me to "close my mouth"? because you don't know what to say to contredict? I'm sure you certainly have a few arguments remaining.
And No, I haven't read all the stuff. Just the last pages. I know most of this convo has turned into rubbish. Good points were mostly stated in the first 5 pages.
Now let's all stay calm. I don't mind the long routes around - it's just that the KNF are so welcoming one way, the GMG are equally nice, and the Corsairs just adore BHers in Gamma. There's always the route through Outcast space but via the Taus and Bretonia, which means Houses systems.
And people are saying the ID has too much freedom. I do mind the BHG being restricted more and more with unclear arguments and generalisations.
Kingvaliant is being clear enough; my point was that it's a question of faction policy rather than a server rule; if the BH id says "no unlawful actions" and "entering Alaska is unlawful" then a BH is oorp being there, BUT any other unlawful isn't. i.e. a BH goes there, he's sanctioned, a corsair goes there, he only has to worry about getting his ship blown up.
There were a lot of things different in vanilla; there wasn't an outright war in the Taus. Things have moved on. If the system is to be accessible to LSF only (RP) then can the gates be locked up? It isn't listed as being owned by the LSF. If it is LSF only, I can't see why there are BH NPC patrols in the system. Why and when were they added? They would suggest that the BHG does know about Alaska. If it is secret then it's the worst kept secret in Sirius.
The BHG is a lawful entity, this pushing the ex-con thing serves only to restrict BHers as if they were unlawful. They are "ex", meaning not any more. As for untrustworthy, well who isn't?
This thread was about capwhoring. A few people seem to have problems with BHers in capital ships and thats a fair enough point. But the whole argument is counter-intuitive. You're proposing to to push all BHer capships into one small area of space and then ask what they're doing there and call some of them OORP for the very thing you demanded. As for Order players complaining about the number of large BH ships, well the Guild Core is
"a powerful and well organized elite....having nearly limitless resources"
All of this wouldnt happen if it werent for that damn Battlecruiser imho.
the BHG was added ,cause they are at war with the order. the order is in alaska, cause they know about the system and there are nomads there. - the BHG got there through theta ( which they used as their omicrons base ) through gamme, which they know very well, due to long campaigns - then through kappa and delta. - they followed the tracks of the order, who came from minor.
there the BHG found the ways to 100, minor, lost, major. and thats when the war started. - so, yes, the BHG got to alaska through minor ( which - when we follow the discussion, some ppl don t want the BHG to be in ( minor / 100 ) - allthough their whole RP around the order / BHG war ( which has as much significance as the war between bretonia and kusari btw. ) evolves around these systems.
now - the BHG got into alaska the same way the order did and the nomads. - and they might have been mighty suprised to find a liberty style jumpgate there - aswell as the liberty forces might have been surprised. - mind, off of all the military forces present in alaska - the sight of a BHG warfleet might have been the most welcome. ( unless the liberty considers the order and the nomads more friendly )
... that was long in the past ....
the present is a state of war. the BHG keeps the order busy. ( in RP ) - if the BHG was not fighting the order, the order - knowing about the alaska jumpgate - could stage more attacks on liberty through that shortcut, henceforth damaging liberty more. - by locking the BHG away, the liberty forces remove a line of defense that they can rely on in favour for being attacked more ( again - in RP, not in reality ).
furthermore, - i wouldn t mind adding such a line to factions... mind ... adding the line "your faction is NOT allowed in alaska" to EVERY faction except the liberty navy / LSF. ( that includes the odd trader, the corsairs, the funny outcasts, the zoners, the nomads, the junkers, the generic pirates, the smugglers, and all playerfactions like the coalition, phantoms, AW etc. - hell, even add that little line to the freakin civilian ID )
but i gotto agree - why should it only be added to the BHG? - off of all factions except for the navy / lsf - the BHG is the most legit faction to be there, yet, you are calling for their ID to state that they must not be there? - why not asking for the same limitation within all the other IDs. ( mind, i do trust igiss that he did not put the BHG into alaska cause he felt like it after some beers... but cause he had something in mind.
now, BHGs in alaska clashes with whatever RP the factions evolved around that place. or what believes they have. - but having NPCs there is a very STRONG point. what if the BHG asked to remove the junkers from omega-15, cause frankly, the junkers are - to use this term " annoying " - and with the rheinlanders and the forge of the BHG warships in 15, the least thing the BHG needs are the nosy junkers that are known to sell information they ought not to know to others. - but the junkers ARE there... and not one person ever asked for them to be removed.
so, the reason the BHG is in alaska is explained above. - it does not include them to travel the jumpgate - allright, but there is no reason why they are not to be in alaska - both, from the point of view of the BHG aswell as the pov of the navy. what sane admiral would ban a warfleet that fights on his side to keep a system secret that has allready been explored, not only by their enemies - but also by countless others, including corsairs, outcasts, smugglers, zoners, traders etc. ( and we cannot ignore those )
since we ditch the singleplayer part - there is no problem in moving the jumpgate to a distant point and putting a minefield maze aroud it with nav beacons to navigate through. - its also no problem to put 6 stationary gunboats there to block the gate ( remember the singleplayer? - the navy had blocked the colorado jumpgate with a phalanx of ships ) - put them on corrupted liberty that is red to all and cannot be raised. - give them admin guns, whatever.
but arguing in RP that the BHG has no right to be there and that they are the only faciton to be added that line as a sanctionable event is - funny at least. we don t put these limitations into the IDs - cause its a RP matter. i don t see a "do not enter liberty" in corsair IDs as a suggested term. - or a "do not use the alaska jumpgate" in the keepers ID or a "do not fly outside of liberty" in the xenos ID - not to mention a "don t fly into kusari space" in the junkers ID.
there are a lot of restrictions that are made in RP - and thats fine, but again - if one starts limiting one, - one should aswell look on the others rights / privileges and reconsider them. - we could also state in the LSF ID "don t fly to omicron-kappa" cause, .... its not really a system well known, its infested by a fleet of countless warships, its planets are hazadrous and have killed or turned a whole colonization fleet of the zoners - not to mention it has only nomad NPCs in there, corsairs, BHGs and the occational zoner dromedary group - no one else. - yet, we do not state that it in the IDs of others not to come there.
of course, the system ID does not say its restricted.... but we gotto keep in mind. the system / jumpgate / minefield ID in new york is vanilla 1.0.... the addition of the BHGs is disco which is a result of the BHGs understanding of their role vs. the order - a later event. so. .... in chronological terms, the original info is outdated, while the fact that BHGs are in alaska is more up to date.
when i read the complaints... it turns out that.... :
- bhgs have to leave alaska
- bhgs have to leave minor
- bhgs have to leave gamma
- bhgs have to leave house space ( in their dedicated warships )
- it leaves omicron-delta all alone with most adjacent systems being ooRP ( unknown is an asteroid system - and ppl already pointed out how ooRP it is to fly into such an asteroid field in a warship; omicron-kappa is a desolate system, but it makes sense for the BHG to be there, omicron-minor was asked to be BHG free - cause the bhg are too annoying, alaska was asked to be bhg free, cause the old ID says so.... now, - whats the RP that is left there if the BHG was to comply to all requests and removed itself from all those systems.
wouldn t it be easier and nicer to try to work something out together instead of banning them not even in RP but also in a rule?
Well, the main problem I see here is that there are some Bounty Hunter players with really good RP, some with decent RP, and a large mass without RP but heavy focus on PvP. Just a couple of days ago, two BH capships, 2 bombers and a fighter were hanging outside of the Bornholm Depot, claiming to "wait for someone", and being a little bit OORP in the system chat (although it can be worse, it still is annoying). What are BHs doing in front of a Junker base? Sure, a Junker base is neutral territory - for unlawfuls, and maybe semi-unlawfuls, but surely not for police, navy or BHs. And, unlike well RPing BHs, this is a common sight - and if they are all in capships then, it gets even worse.
Again, I propose making the capship license admin approval only, and, to not give them too much work, make it requiring either a good forum RP history or a well-written biography for the capship pilot. I agree with Tenacity in his first post completely, except for the OORP traderoute point.
Your arguments are indeed correct in many ways. But you say those things as if there are no places for BHG players to go when in truth you can go practicly everywhere.
It is actually correct to see Houses finaly forbidding the entry of BHG capital ships into there system (aldo that is not something that is actually being done , even for Rhainland). BH are everywhere and most of the BHG players think they have the authority to do everything they wish. The ID of a BH alows you to go everywhere and do almost everything you see fit. Thats freedom NON of the other factions posses. So , when people try to shut down the entry to SOME of the system you are alowed to go , a war erupts.
Alaska - Liberty generals , admirals use their technology there. There prisons are there and the LSF do their top-secret government projects there. Now , what fleet leader would alow some ex-cons and money seekers to go there ? It is just no possible. No matter the fact that the BHG are at war with the Order. That system is used by Liberty for there top-secret operations. If the Core is to go there , then Liberty should start sharing information about there dealings there , because there is no point in keeping it a secret.
Minor - The Order is the most technologicly advanced faction in the game. Why exactly do you think we can't hide Minor from the Core ? BHG NPC may go there , but capital ships and constant BHG presence just out side the Docking Ring ? When I see three groups of BHG NPC , each one with a Destroyer , fighting Order Anubis NPC's I think that the Order is close to being extinced. But that is not the case , so those pesky BHG NPC are a no no outside Minor. Maby put them in the asteroid field that surrounds the planet , what ever. But it's like every single day , Minor is under siege by BH.
Omicron - 100 - Now thats just rediculas. Our shipyard is there , there is another Osiris there and a base. Thats probly the most heavy guarded and protected guard system. Not only that the rules for entering there have been set perfectly clear by the Bs , but if the space around Toledo is out of reach for the hunters , then how the hell can they know that 100 even exists. Not to mention that I see an armada of BS there. BS's , in our guard system. It's not a matter of "they can go there" , more then it's a matter of "they shouldn't be alowed to go there". Because BH players that enter those systems are fully aware that they can atack everything there and RP supports them. In simple terms , they just go there to PvP and be trigger happy. If thats the case , would you mind me if I parked my BS infront of the Docking Ring of your home planet and killed you. "You BH me iz Order , we arez enemiz" . While I type some sort of RP with those Hunters (cuz I don't realy know what to say to the 100th BH BS I see in 100) , I get atacked with no words of RP spoken.
Every player from every faction can "go" where he wants. It's another story of "if he is supposed to be there".
while your point is most certainly right and just. - there is still a difference there between putting a limitation into RP and a limitation into a general rule. for every BHG that acts out of his parameter, i can show you someone of another faction that acts the same. - however, weighing up ooRPness is nither what we want nor does it help much.
fact is - a lot of BHGs act with much more freedom than other factions. of course, i can do a lot more things - especially focussed on pvp - on my BHG char, than i can do on my zoner or gaian char. - so i wouldn t justify the actions of those that act out of order.
but one must also keep in mind that it is still roleplay ( including all the "you are not supposed to do" and the "you are supposed to do" stuff ) - for example. - if a criminal that was caught red handed is retreating into a debris field - straight to a junker base. - the lawfuls may follow him - or ... in RP, think its too much trouble and let him go. - while the LPI might think its too much trouble ( thats what the NPCs do ) - the BHG might not think so. - the result is them lurking around the place this player has docked on.
the outcome is that the BHGs feel "wrong" in that place - and surely are... but its not the BHGs alone to blame. - it was said quite some times. - if a base is to be held secret, i must make sure that those that are allowed to dock there hold it secret. - a responsibility that gotto be realized.
edit: proposing an admin aproval of a warship license has been discussed and shot down. - capital ships and fighters are treated the very same. for both, you need a good roleplay - for the former you need more responsibility - but that has to be proven by everyone, playerfactions, non-playerfactions, lawfuls, unlawfuls and neutrals.
ooc chat is unrelated to both, the ships they fly and the factions they belong to. - thats a violation to a rule - and if it does make one mad, one is free to report it. - if however, one does not feel that its a sanctionable incident, - well, there is no need to mention it.
well, the point was not to put it into the ID as a rule. when all other factions and IDs commit a roleplay violation, why should the BHG commit a server rule violation when they go there. thats a whole different quality of violations. - furthermore, the BHG has a RP background to invade omicron-100, - i know its a guard system and guard rules apply, BUT - it is also a special case of warfare - so the guard system can be defended as the faction pleases ( and we know from former posts, that playerfactions have the numbers and the power to destroy any casual intruder - so whats the big deal. - shoot them down and thats it )
personally, i wouldn t mind if alaska JG was shut down - just like magellan / new york. - why? - well, its a secret system that not even the highest ranking officers actually know of much. - more a conspiracy for a selected circle of .... ( in that case ) highest ranking NPCs ( yes, NPCs ) - and again we are in a conflict when players start to impersonate these NPCs. - a gate cannot be locked for all but a few players. its either open or its shut down. - if the truth is that the gate is open to NO ONE but like 0.000001% of the liberty navy officers - the majority would call for the gate to be locked.
cause that way - only 0.0000001% of the players need to roleplay that they HAVE access ( doesn t mean they go there ) - while all the rest ... well, they don t need to RP not to go there, cause as a matter of fact... they can t.
so the question stands - why do we not want the alaska JG to be shut down altogether - what reasons do we have to keep it up - and just roleplay for a selected few to be able to go there. no faction deploys a standing fleet of defenders there from what i know - so its really only NPCs there. the order comes from their own side, so do the nomads.
@kingvaliant:
while i do agree with your arguments - at least from a RP point of view ( from a point of view concerning fairness of how factions are treated alike, i disagree ) - the patrolling map is no argument for that case. - omicron-delta shows no patrolling paths cause these gotto be edited into the map. yet, its undeniable that the BHG patrols that system heavily. - BHGs were added with disco, thats why they have no patrol paths.
I actually agree with a lot of the points Jinx is making, and if he's being unclear then allow me to clarify. Nobodies saying that you do not have th right to restrict your space, nobody's saying that you should allow packs of roving capital ships from any faction the right to base camp your guard systems, but it's a matter of Roleplay rules rather than server rules. It is an RP rule that nobody but high level members of the LSF/LN are allowed into Zone21, and you can show me all the info cards you like until I see it in the server rules thread it'll remain an RP rule. Bs| rules regarding Omicron 100 are also RP rules, the only server rule that backs that up is the one allowing system owning factions to restrict their space as they see fit, but it is up to them to do it.
Kuraine's ID proposals are very good and increase the range of what most factions can do regarding the server rules, based upon their RP. But Alaska is restricted to all in RP, as are most guard systems, should each and everyone of those be listed on every ID Kuraine has proposed? Because if you do it for one ID, it must be done to all.
Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.
' Wrote:It's not just to appeal to players. Why in gods name wouldn't a capship not have the ability to counter a single bomber? especially 1100 years from the present. What? The people of FL haven't learned from all the carriers, cruisers destroyers, pre-dreadnoughts, dreadnoughts, super-dreadnoughts, and submarines sunken by bombers over the last 800 years to make some kind of defense against this (and don't say fighter escort because a capital ship as big as they are should be able to carry some kind of gun to compensate for being to slow and large to elude such an obvious tactic.
Secondly I don't know if you've noticed but a battleship has no thruster it is impossible to keep up let alone elude bomber fire. No matter how good you are the best one could do is e-kill in an asteroid field and hopefully bounce around dodging the fire This designers class ship most of all should have known "Hey this bitch ain't gonna be able to loop de loop around 40 incoming torpedoes let alone high velocity projectiles (like the SN). Finally Even if you gave the Osiris the agility of a startracker it's still a big ass hunk of metal making it easier to hit.
Instead of just nerfing every damn thing in sight every time someone whines, why don't we make weapons that are built for such threats? Bomber attacks are obvious considering the repair bill for any damages (compared to another capship) as well as survival rate (especially with the way things stand in this version) there's no need for any side to use capships against the other. Because they can easily be countered with little cost and less people being killed (seeing as bombers have only 2 or three people on board opposed to 300 people on a capship as well as the little cost of using and losing them). It's if you wanna be real it's not just capships that need fighter support in many games bombers or units equivalent to them need (fighter equivalent) fighter support.
Another note: I also realize if you aim directly to the cross the shots will go there but a center meter away they'll miss by a mile
I agree with a concept here. Its called the arms race. Instead of nerfing anything. Why dont we add better tech to compensate? Thats what we do in real life if there is a problem we compensate with addtional equipment.
Man < cargo so we design a "forklift" now we have, Forklift > cargo. Then we have "BIG cargo" come along.
"BIG cargo" > forklift the fork lift dont cut it so we build "Crane" Crane > BIG cargo.
Anyway this sleep deprived example means we build new tools when the old are inadequate.
Let avoid nerfing and "build", "NEW TECH". Disco needs new toys to help balance.
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