Badger: your idea on one big skirmish map is very interesting. Unrealistic, but still interesting. And certainly well worth to implement. Question is - how?
Laser: this is going to spoil trade routes greatly, which I won't like to do.
Point is that clan system cannot actually be conquered. Or, it might be conquered, but won't fall into winners hands. So that each faction has only one home. It's like this: hostile faction gathers forces in a nearby system and launches an assault, opposed by hostile bases and NPCs and players. In addition to that, a skirmish map may exist somewhere to provide for some interesting gameplay. But it won't be directly connected to faction systems. Actually, I'm planning two entrances for each faction system: one open, one secret.
Another question is how many such systems are needed. We have a maximum of 4-5 system owning factions, maybe even less. On the other hand, there are licenses that represent over 40 factions. Very different numbers, eh? Surely we won't make faction systems for corporations. But most pirates, for example, well deserve it.
Let's say for the sake of argument that there are 6 big bases circling the system, for example:
* 3 large stations in orbit of planets/planetoids
* 3 pirate style stations
And 15-20k in from each of those systems is a smaller outpost, connected by a short trade lane. So 12 dockable bases in total.
Each system owning faction (of which there are currently 4, and therefore space for 2 more in this example) can claim one large base, and the accompanying smaller base. A typical battle would involve 2 opposing sides with the base setups mentioned above, and involve the attack/defence of each. A battle would unfold like so:
The smaller base would have to be attacked and conquered before any assault can be made on the larger one. Conquering the smaller base is achieved by killing or driving off all defending forces, leaving the base surrounded by nothing but the entire attacking force. The attackers then win the right to dock at the conquered smaller station, while the defenders are forced to dock at their larger one. Then the battle is repeated at the larger station. Obviously there would have to be an agreed respawn limit otherwise the battle would be endless.
An alternative idea, is that each side is limited to one Battleship as their flagship. Once the flagship is destroyed, that side is forced to retreat one step, ie: flagship is killed while attacking enemy small base, flagship has to then defend it's own small base. Flagship is killed again in defence of small base, flagship is forced to defend large base. Flagship killed in defence here, then that side loses.
Anyway, that's an idea of how a skirmish map could work, it's by no means flawless and I haven't explained the possibilities available when a side also has an ally to fight alongside, but I'll leave the speculation open for the moment.
Of course, I don't mean to steal any limelight here, this skirmish map idea would be the perfect ground to implement a lot of Dab's original ideas without upsetting the rest of Discovery, especially the base building. My only hesitations are that the base building by way of patches would mean periodic updates both client and serverside, which isn't ideal.
Igiss, about changing the NPC alignment of the bases. I meant ONLY the bases that factions payed for to have constructed. So say AW bought a base, it would be conquerable and the NPCs would change. Leeds though, would not. Leeds, since it is an original FL base/planet, would not be changed from Bretonian Police.
I forget who, but someone had the idea of making factions in control of bases and the areas around them, instead of the system its in. So 1 system could have many different factions inside of it. Like a system with 4 bases could have 4 factions with influence there. So noone would OWN a system, just areas (lets say about 40K distance) around those bases. Then to have permission to build bases, they must have control of ALL bases in that area.
So to build a base in Gamma would require you to have control of both Crete and Tripoli, then you can create more bases. Then those bases will also be required to control if an enemy faction wants to be able to build in that system. So you can increase the amount of bases they must capture. I do like the idea of private systems, but they would seem to not be a part of the game. I think the systems should be like every other system.
I hadn't meant that factions COULD get 2 billion every 2 weeks, I meant they COULD NOT. I think it should be about 150-200 mil every 1-2 weeks at max. So the factions couldn't get to much of an advantage over others. Also, the bigger ones with more bases wouldn't make them too much stronger than others. It would take much more expense to create a base, than to conquer one.
About the private systems;
Maybe we can start all system owning factions right now, with their own systems. Thats their "start system." It would be connected to their currect home system by a JH/JG. So AW would have one connected to Theta, RM connected the New Berlin. To make that system conquerable all the other systems must be in the hands of other factions, with no bases in those systems belonging to the faction being invaded. So to take the AW system, they would have to have NO bases other than those in their system. This would implement both ideas.
So noone would own a system, just bases in that system. Even owning ALL the system's bases doesn't control the system itself. Just gives you the power to construct new bases. Pirates will be restricted to what bases they can conquer. For example, they shouldn't be allowed to conquer New Berlin, but Outcast aligned pirates should be able to conquer Corsair aligned pirate's bases. There should be a limit to amount of bases a faction can conquer per month or something, so that pirates don't own every single pirate base immediately because there are no other pirate factions. Plus if a new faction comes, and is on the server for 3-4 weeks and have 5+ members, they can be allowed to pick a base. Not just any base, but a small pirate base would be fine. But say, a Bundschuh aligned faction comes, and a the moment there is only 1 Bundschuh base, that faction would be awarded that base, as it is their alignment.
Another thing we can do, if we decide the factions own bases not systems; People hostile to the owners of a base, cannot dock that base. So pirates cannot dock at New Berlin. Phantoms at FP9. Yakuza at New Tokyo. And so on. If they do, it would be rule violating and would get a criminal ID. This way Phantoms wouldn't be able to get the Zoner Juggernaut or Eagle, as it belongs to a hostile faction. Maybe if there was an RP thread explaining how it was gotten it could be allowed to get. Say they have an RP where its being stolen, then we could allow them the ship.
About the traveling through hostile territory.. They SHOULD have to! To attack say, Alpha the enemy SHOULD have to go through Tau-37 or Theta. They should not just go to an arena to battle it out, it should be battled at that station. With that station's NPCs. With the stuff in that system, such as asteroid fields that SHOULD provide hard navigation for battleships. The area in the system has a large effect on a battle in that system. So a system within an asteroid field would benefit a group of fighters much more than a bunch of battleships, but fighting in an arena completely negates it.
I still think we need some kind of transport use in wars, like Badger. Something related to taking a station. You cannot simply get a station by taking out the space defenders, there must be some way of taking out the onboard troops to defend the base, otherwise you would never be able to land there. Referees wouoldn't be counting spawns as they are infinite, he would be counting the amount of dropped troops and inform when the station has been taken. Then say the attackers must defend it for 5-10 minutes until the defenders are no longer allowed to try and retake it. If the base is taken, all defenders must retreat (and those on the station undock and retreat as well) land at another base, THEN come back. So when the station is taken it much like a time out. Everyone docks where they need to, then the fight is resumed.
Obviously there will be kinks and bugs in this plan, but I think we can work them out.
In fact I just got an idea. The trading stations don't grant the faction money, but increase the amount of stations they can support. So all money made by trading stations would be sent to provide the stations under that faction's control. Plus those trade stations send transports with necessities to those bases. So a faction with 1 small trade station can support, say 6 outposts, 2 medium stations, OR 1 large station. If it has 1 medium station it can support 12 outposts, 4 medium stations, OR 2 large stations. If they have 1 large trade station they can support 18 outposts, 6 medium stations, 3 large stations, or 1 planet. Then if they have 2 large trade stations they are multiplied by 2. So you would have 36 outposts, 12 medium stations, 6 large stations, 2 shipyards, OR 1 planets. Or combinations. 3 outposts = 1 medium station or battleship, 2 medium stations = 1 large station, 3 large stations = 1 shipyard, 2 shipyards = 1 planet.
And then leave the factions to generate their own money through player transports. And all bases would require large sums of money.
Trade Station (TS) Small: 200mil
TS Medium: 300mil
TS Large: 600mil
Outpost/small station: 120 mil
Medium Station: 240 mil
Battleship: 240
Large Station: 480 mil
Shipyard: 960 mil
Planet: must be conquered.
I can keep track of who owns how much stuff, and see who needs trade stations and that stuff. If a faction does not have enough trade stations to support all its stations, they cannot buy anymore bases until they have enough trade stations.
Prices are very high, so that factions cannot buy alot of them all the time. Notice shipyards cost alot, but they will be stronger than any other base. Also, I got an idea about them. Instead of selling cheaper capships, they allow the faction owner to get a free battleship every 2 weeks. Since it would be building it. House factions would start with one.
Also, trade stations only need to upkeep faction created bases, so RM would not need trade stations to support New Berlin, or The Ring, AW not need to support FP9, and so on.
The ideas just keep popping up in my head. :wacko:
This is much too complicated. Plus, Igiss wants to make a mod that's logical for other servers to be able to use, so adding in stations, planets, etc. isn't something others are looking for.
We need to keep this AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. I know if I owned a faction, I wouldn't bother building these stations you're talking about. I mean, you can have the same number of people with one station as you can with 10 stations, 2 shipyards, and a planet. Who, other than you, Dab, is going to bother?
We need to be able to conquer systems that is acceptable to everyone. I think just being able to conquer a system you need to have a faction in the system you want to conquer. And they need to be connected.
The battles would simply be a 3-death rule fight. You may use whatever ship you want for the lives, but battleships must be used for your first life, and must only be used ONCE.
Of course, there is always the option of having there be an admin "reset" button. Meaning you, the admins, can decide that a faction is conquering too many systems. That basically is a "economic-meltdown" button. They can no longer support their extra systems and are once again limited to their home system.
OR
You can set a system-limit.
EDIT:
Before I forget, there may need to be a way to make yourself able to sort of keep people out of your systems. A sort of 3-death rule where if you are killed in an enemy faction's system by that faction three times, you are kicked out. Of course, the defender would be able to three-death everyone else, as well.
Dab, I'm sorry but what you would suggest is too complicated even for a MMORPG. Every game producer would send you far away with suggestions like that, cause it involves coding too complicated for a space sim. You propose to do it all manually. Runs away scared.
First of all, bases. If I ever do 'faction guardian' factions, each of these won't have more than 3-4 bases per system. Maximum 5. Bases close together cause lag, both visual and server/client. As I'm not going to have any faction systems Manhattan-size, there won't be space for more. There won't be trade lanes in there, so travelling from one base to another shouldn't take much time in open space. Besides, I don't want more than 2 bases in each faction system. That's well enough. Of course, plus weapon platforms. With guns that will hurt, real hurt.
Next. Shipyard is a complex construction. It's not like you push a button in FLEx and it's there. It involves combining structures, and even I didn't manage to find out how is it done, only Angel knows that :) hope she'll explain me one day. But even if she will, I'm not intended to place any complex bases for faction systems, and elsewhere! There are enough standard bases to suit those needs.
Quote:36 outposts, 12 medium stations, 6 large stations, 2 shipyards, OR 1 planets
Damn it, do you know that each House has less than 30 bases total, excluding pirate bases? You here are talking about 36 outposts. Again, 5 bases per system is a very very high number.
Quote:I forget who, but someone had the idea of making factions in control of bases and the areas around them, instead of the system its in.
You'd better forget the concept altogether with its author. Maybe we should write another Datastorm to generate the map of all this? Or you'll draw it with pen and paper? Don't go into stuff that compicated, please.
I'm not intended to prohibit docking anywhere. If you are not hostile, you are free to dock.
Quote:Obviously there will be kinks and bugs in this plan, but I think we can work them out.
During about 5 years we will work them out. Sorry Dab, but it's true, no intentions to insult you or anything... but your dreams are way too unrealistic. However, some of your suggestions will surely be used, and you are certainly right of rising this matter which most people seem to avoid.
outposts would mean those really small border/gate stations. But I get your point.
Angel isn't the only one who knows how to construct complex bases, I have already made 2 shipyards in my systems.
I hadn't meant to make large systems with lots of bases. There would have been a base limit for each system. Also, to have 36 outposts a faction would have to give up getting any Large stations, shipyards, and medium stations, resulting in ONLY outposts, which are not very good stations..
And I still think there should be some way to buy stations, use limits yes, but somehow be able to buy stations for NPC factions that you are aligned with.
Dab, like I've said, I love the idea of buying bases.
But it can't be implemented. Igiss would have to add a base each time someone bought one (patch time) and change the ownership when it was conquered (more patch time). And say it was conquered a few times in a day. (Good lord so many patches)
Returning with a Vengeance June 2007 Sirius Universal Time.
We are coming.
Characters:
BDBC-Yamato - Talarca Light Battlecruiser
BDBS-Musashi - Kusari Heavy Battleship (to be stolen)
BDF-Shinano - Blood Dragon Fighter *
FL-Monarch (to be commissioned) **
</span> The 大和, Battlecruiser Yamato, is Admiral Yamato's personal yacht and primary combat ship.
<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'> The 武蔵, Battleship Musashi, is Admiral Yamato's command center and mobile base of operations for his personal fleet. * The 信濃, Fighter Shinano, is Admiral Yamato's personal fighter and reconnaisance ship, used for backup purposes. ** The Monarch is a freelance freighter captained by Bretonian Navy veteran, William Earnshaw Jr.
I don't think it's realistic to patch the mod more than once in 3-4 weeks. No one is talking about patching each time a base is conquered Prometheus. Which raises another problem: the changes won't be easily reflected on the map, and base building will be rather slow.
One more moment that Dab forgot is infocards... I'm the only one who remembers all number lists that I used, so it will be rather difficult for anyone else to create the patch.
And I'm afraid I cannot allow to create any new bases or other stuff inside existing systems. Only in new ones. This will help to avoid crashes and other problems for those who don't have the patch (I hope you are not naive enough to say that everyone will download those things immediately). Moreover, this won't influence single and casual multiplayer for people who don't want to get involved into faction mess.
As for actually buying stations and system conquests, I suppose we'd think about it when I'll be ready to present the concept of faction systems. But before that, I'll need to get release version of 4.80 ready.
(*deep breath* let me see if I don't fall too unrealistic...)
What about implementing:
- Capital Systems (CS) and Capital Industry Centers (CIC).
Every Capital System had a Capital Industry Center which had a revenue rate, low, but steady, and could be higher depending on the activity/trade there. That place would be the main Planet.
i.e. New York would be Capital System of Liberty, Manhattan would be Capital Industry Center of Liberty, etc.
The Capital Industry Centers act like a meter for income. Virtual also because they would not generate "live" credit.
The "income" would be the economy health for the war machine.
The more it generates, the more the war machine has to fund Military Pilot and Troop enlistment and training, Military Vehicle and Spaceship manufacture, logistic support, etc.
We could draw the lines in several levels of generated income that would be translated in number of troops, vehicles, transports, spaceships, etc.
i.e.:
In a month (*a), Liberty CIC income was a billion credits.
That would allow the System Owner Server Faction (SOSF) (*b) to have one Large Transporter, 3600 Landing Troops, 400 Military Vehicles, 2 Light Fighters, 4 Very Heavy Fighters, 2 Battle Ships and a Medical (Repair?) Ship.
This means that Liberty can either defend or attack, depending on the following:
i.e.:
If revenue is > than a billion, can attack and defend.
If revenue is > than half a bilion <= than a billion, can defend only.
If revenue is < than half a bilion, the system economy is just enough for funding trade lane maintenance and in-house security and therefore cannot fund military to attack or defend. In this case, the SOSF would be in charge of defence alone.
Alliance and interest from other SOFS could change everything though.
- Turn some Outposts into Special Outposts.
The Outposts of each System's edge frontiers would be turned into Special Outposts. Special Outposts are the same as current Outposts, just change the rules of the game. They start to act as a forward "watch tower" and must be destroyed within some time.
This would just be of technical importance and would allow for Special Operations.
i.e. Rheinland wants to invade Liberty.
Some Special Operation Task Force from Rheinland SOFS would be elected to destroy the Special Outpost in Texas within 2 minutes.
If it succeeds, the Liberty Military are not alerted in time.
Based on the level of resistance and quickness that Liberty Military places in Texas, Rheinland either conquers the Texas System or just the frontier's Special Outpost.
Resistance could be measured in, i.e.:
- how many pilots die,
- how many are left in the end
- how much troops survive to land on Planet. (*c)
Also, like I said, if Texas were conquered, next outpost would be California or New York.
The less systems in command, the less CIC receive for income.
This could be adjusted with Alliances with military aid only...
The attempt to Conquer the Capital System would give all the rest of the invaded controled systems to the invader.
There could be more about resistance and time that invader has control in conquered territory. Like for example, invader can only control invaded system for a month, but receives CIC income from captured systems for half a month. No need for 2 week patch if you like... All appear next month in news ;)
Well, I'm tired now.
Got some more ideas but I'll keep them for laters.
What do you think so far?
(*a)
- it would have to be monthly or so that it would lessen the patchwork (only infocards for the news though).
- also, if someone tried but failed conquering, it could just go on the news for one month...
(*b)
- it would have to be this way to avoid the need of new systems and more complicated changes.
- also, a real war could only exist if there were (enough) members in a certain System (in this case SOFS).
(*c)
- the possibilities within reality are vast. we could end up deciding if a planet is conquered or not by suplying support Landing Troops to a certain planet being invaded with Enemy Landing Troops/Military Vehicles...
All within real simple and able to do things with not too much effort.
The most important that needs patchwork change is mainly the News really. Because everything else would be Role Playing, just like the game is meant to be.
The main game would be played in space instead of building systems and fixing bugs...
;)
None of you can see why I'm so sceptical about those train/troops ideas? Imagine yourself on place of pilot of that train. Having to go from one place to another many many times bringing something, while everyone else is fighting around. Who will agree on that role? And why waste precious server resources (cause the more players are in one place at one time, the more server load increases - you may have 30 players in different systems with less lag than 15 in one place) for that train?
Destructible installations are another bugger cause they'll respawn each 24 hours (our server current restart time, might be even less actially). You destroy it, conquer system and oops - in 10 minutes it respawns again, owned by same faction as before, and starts shooting at you. Logical? Hardly so.
But main reason why I have to reject eon's idea is the system owning part - we have only one home system per faction, not the whole space under its control. Liberty is faction-free (but that's not really important). Anyway, we are going to move homes away from existing systems so that faction gameplay doesn't interfere within NPC activities.
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