What about Barges?

[Redline.Inc]

Everyone is upset about some stuff on the upcoming update but truth be told that we dont have a real patch in years...
Id say give the Team a chance... and stop abusing the toys they give us hehe

I'm in full agreement, but also hoping that those of us who use the Barge as intended don't end up paying for the sins of the abusers.
I ran ore in my Barge one single time to see what all the fuss was about and made nearly enough to buy a battleship in that one run alone.

Well, ores will change big time in this patch, (because they must) so that problem fixes itself.

POB refineries look to be able to make actually doing base supplying a lucrative trading endeavor, which could finally fix 3 things simultaneously.

[*] Misuse of Barges
[*] The recurring Nightmare of POB maintenance
[*] Lack of a realistic economic model

If POB refineries succeed in making the provision of base supplies a dynamic supply and demand model, IMO the mod will be greatly enhanced and made much more realistic. A society that survived being dropped into a new universe to start over again would have done so by scraping the necessary materials together from the clouds and fields around them. This would be how they continue to survive and thrive.
Hopefully, this will make trading the engine that drives successful POB businesses, and make trading work an important necessity that requires attending to, rather than leaving them to struggle unassisted under a ridiculous regime where their cargo is lost because pirates counterlog and destroy convoys with capships at will and without consequence.
Maybe it will make a difference when POB businesses have to deal with higher materials prices due to supply shortages because of piracy.

From what I've seen so far, this patch will move Disco closer to a space Sim rather than tragically continuing it's recent movement ever closer to being just another simple pvp server with capships, and little other reason to participate.

[Prysin]

As of right now the only active change in the test build of the mod is that we have applied a bumping "band-aid" that massively reduces the effects of player-to-player and npc-to-player collisions. The Barge, by virtue of being the slowest and (one of the) largest ship in the mod is one of the biggest beneficiaries of this change.

We have code ready to prevent select ships from taking tradelanes. This code is primarily intended to be used for the Barge. However, as of right now we haven't fully decided on what kind of compensation buff (if any) could be applied to offset this change. We want the Barge to be a side-grade of 5k transports with a niche or two it might be particularly good at, but given its enormous cargo space simply buffing its cruise speed or charge time will very quickly make it print hundreds of millions of credits running remote, non-lane-bound routes. Since we're aiming to keep the Barge viable, but trying to prevent it from remaining the game's most effective credit printer (which it was never intended to be, regardless of its high cost), we have to make sure whatever changes we make are well-balanced and make the ship feel worthwhile to own. It is very likely that we'll postpone Barge-specific changes to a hotfix after 5.0 itself so that we have enough time to fine-tune things.

I would like to briefly touch on the cost aspect of the Barge: in Discovery, credits do not buy you power. A Cruiser can take on a Battleship several times more expensive than itself, and win. A handful of bombers costing less than a hundred million credits total can take out a fleet of capital ships worth billions. The Barge is not an exception to this rule. It is not meant to be a straight upgrade.

Sounds like the EASY FIX for such "abuse" is simply to make the barge "unable to dock due to inadequate infrastructure" at such bases where the profit margins would be problematic. Then give it the desired cruise speed buff

It's entirely inRP reasonable to deny docking of a moon sized object on remote installations, where such giant and expensive to operate vessels would hardly if ever be found.

EDIT: Im so smart!!! i should be a transport balance dev :O

---

DHC Discord

[Mr.Jamison]

It's entirely inRP reasonable to deny docking of a moon sized object on remote installations, where such giant and expensive to operate vessels would hardly if ever be found.

The Barge's infocard claims that deep space is it's intended purpose.
It makes sense that remote bases in wide open spaces would need larger deposits due to being too inaccessible for frequent smaller drops.
But then, it also makes inRP sense that House Govt's would restrict it's access to congested areas.

But, I agree that many bases would reject Barges if they had the ability to do so. (and they should)

---

"Designed and manufactured to serve in dark corners of space where the closest friendly base is but a memory; the Barge is a mobile factory, station and refinery designed to operate independently of external support...

Staggering operational and manufacturing costs prevent vessels of this type from being used for any but the most specific and urgent need, as its sheer bulk of size and intense jump hole destabilizing gravity well prevents it from being utilized in any environment but deep space."

---

In any case, the Barge definitely needs yellow strobes and a "Wide Load" sign on it's tail. :o)

---

User was banned for: Possibly compromised account.

https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...tid=204206
Time left: (Permanent)

[Lord Chaos]

The following code checks if the barge is carrying a mineable item.
If it is carrying a mineable item, it will not be allowed to make dock at a profitable destination.
If it is not carrying a mineable item, it is allowed to dock.

```
if (barge.carryingMineableItem()) {
doNotMakeDock();
} else {
makeDock();
}
```

This code assumes that there is a method named `carryingMineableItem()` that returns true if the barge is carrying a mineable item and false otherwise.
The `doNotMakeDock()` and `makeDock()` methods are used to indicate whether the barge should or should not make dock.

I know Freelancer has diferent coding but the principle should be the same
Just a thought

[Mr.Jamison]

The following code checks if the barge is carrying a mineable item.
If it is carrying a mineable item, it will not be allowed to make dock at a profitable destination.
If it is not carrying a mineable item, it is allowed to dock.

```
if (barge.carryingMineableItem()) {
doNotMakeDock();
} else {
makeDock();
}
```

This code assumes that there is a method named `carryingMineableItem()` that returns true if the barge is carrying a mineable item and false otherwise.
The `doNotMakeDock()` and `makeDock()` methods are used to indicate whether the barge should or should not make dock.

I know Freelancer has diferent coding but the principle should be the same
Just a thought

It seems that the implementation of separate buy/sell screens for POB's will settle this issue for those bases at least?

---

User was banned for: Possibly compromised account.

https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...tid=204206
Time left: (Permanent)

[Vlad]

As of right now the only active change in the test build of the mod is that we have applied a bumping "band-aid" that massively reduces the effects of player-to-player and npc-to-player collisions. The Barge, by virtue of being the slowest and (one of the) largest ship in the mod is one of the biggest beneficiaries of this change.

We have code ready to prevent select ships from taking tradelanes. This code is primarily intended to be used for the Barge. However, as of right now we haven't fully decided on what kind of compensation buff (if any) could be applied to offset this change. We want the Barge to be a side-grade of 5k transports with a niche or two it might be particularly good at, but given its enormous cargo space simply buffing its cruise speed or charge time will very quickly make it print hundreds of millions of credits running remote, non-lane-bound routes. Since we're aiming to keep the Barge viable, but trying to prevent it from remaining the game's most effective credit printer (which it was never intended to be, regardless of its high cost), we have to make sure whatever changes we make are well-balanced and make the ship feel worthwhile to own. It is very likely that we'll postpone Barge-specific changes to a hotfix after 5.0 itself so that we have enough time to fine-tune things.

I would like to briefly touch on the cost aspect of the Barge: in Discovery, credits do not buy you power. A Cruiser can take on a Battleship several times more expensive than itself, and win. A handful of bombers costing less than a hundred million credits total can take out a fleet of capital ships worth billions. The Barge is not an exception to this rule. It is not meant to be a straight upgrade.

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate that

[Sally]

It is delusional because developer staff are staying mum on barges (which tells me something is cooking). Imagine you bought a new car for a goodly amount of money. A patch is released to the CPU of the car which prevents it from having the same fuel efficiency and speed, 2 of the things you decided was worth buying that car for. Wouldn't you want a refund too? To your point, even partial refunds would be acceptable. None has been offered, not even feedback to threads such as this.

Difference being, a car is an actual physical good that costs physical resources to produce and money, and you can choose to never touch firmware and stick in an older version, unless you're in US and it's one of those new Tesla cars or some other electric piece-of-trash car, which you de-facto don't even own in the first place, even if you paid for it and you're held accountable for what happens behind the wheel, in my personal case, I wouldn't want a refund because I would never purchase a car that can be remotely bricked by big tech over internet whenever they feel like it.

This is a digital asset that can be replicated an infinite amount of times once it's done, on a game, (allegedly) getting nerfed, along with a whole economy upgrade. No one can stop you or anyone else from reversing whatever changes are made on this patch and no one stops you from hosting your own server with said changes if you disagree with them, unlike with the hypothetical DRMed car example you mentioned. Whether someone will play on said server is a completely different issue.

Cars aren't a good example for this, and makes you sound even more delusional if you believe they're remotely comparable.

[Lord Chaos]

The following code checks if the barge is carrying a mineable item.
If it is carrying a mineable item, it will not be allowed to make dock at a profitable destination.
If it is not carrying a mineable item, it is allowed to dock.

```
if (barge.carryingMineableItem()) {
doNotMakeDock();
} else {
makeDock();
}
```

This code assumes that there is a method named `carryingMineableItem()` that returns true if the barge is carrying a mineable item and false otherwise.
The `doNotMakeDock()` and `makeDock()` methods are used to indicate whether the barge should or should not make dock.

I know Freelancer has diferent coding but the principle should be the same
Just a thought

It seems that the implementation of separate buy/sell screens for POB's will settle this issue for those bases at least?

Hum... what about this idea, no coding needed:

NEW RULE
Barges cant carry transformed goods. if we catch you breaking the rules you lose your Barge
You can buy another one as soon as you whant, dont forget to break rules again so the Team take another Barge from you

Edit: As far as i understand the sell/buy pricing problem isnt solved, the processing of mineables into a new item does it naturally, so although some may think it would need to re-write the entire PoB code that isnt true as it can be solved with a single line of code.

[Antonio]

When I came back over 2 months ago, the last thing I expected was to see the Barge being the ultimate money-printing machine it was never intended to be. The trade lane nerf is primarily because of balance. No matter how much the Barge costs, it having the option to make 2x more money than a 5ker in the same amount of time presents an issue for the balance of the economy. Yeah, it sucks if you were a nice obedient Barge enjoyer who did not abuse its overpowered state, but the same can't be said about everyone else. A *lot* of Barges powertraded ore this patch, and got dirty rich off of it.

Balance has to be done according to a ship's maximum potential, regardless of how many people utilize that potential and regardless of the area it is causing an issue in (economy balance, pvp balance, etc.). It happens in literally every online video game ever. To give an analogy: it only takes a few people to abuse a broken ship, like the release OSC Shuttle, in order for it to get a nerf. "Oh but I liked my OSC Shuttle and didn't abuse it for PvP, it's unfair!" - it doesn't matter, when the ship was worth 3 regular fighters in PvP and had to be rightfully nerfed.

The price is not a valid argument either. If we followed the logic of "Barge cost 15 billions so it has to be better at making money than everything else", then Battleships would be the most overpowered ships in the game because you paid 2 billion credits for one, while snubs would be worthless. It does suck to get your shiny expensive toy nerfed, but you have to be honest to yourself and acknowledge it was never intended to be better at powertrading ore than 5kers. Not in gameplay, or in lore, where it makes even less sense that it can speedrun Helium-3 - Helium through lanes.

---

Economy foundation is built around 5kers. A Barge has 6 times more cargo than that. It is already a nightmare making it a balanced ship economy-wise, and I think Barge will continue to be too good in many areas post-release. For example supplying PoBs on short distances, and short distance deliveries in general. Or finding a money making route that, even with no trade lanes, will still earn a lot of money simply because it has 6 times more cargo than a 5ker. Maybe there's a new broken route people will find which is why Haste said he will re-balance it again in the future.

Oh and one thing that people sleep on is the anti-bump buff. From what I've heard, being bumped out of the way is one of the most dreaded things Barge players experience, and knowing you cannot be flipped around by a random enemy NPC is a huge bonus.

---

tldr; trade lane nerf has been long coming, anti-bump buff is more than you think and Barge will still be great for many non-money printing activities.

Edit: Just in case, this is me speaking as a regular community member. I have nothing to do with Barge balance, or economy in general.

---

SNAC Montage Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Thruster SNAC

[Lusitano]

with the new economy changes, ores will take the double of space, and just that means less profit, but also will not be sold like now as a very high profit cargo. so ... why killing nerfing the barge if the economy changes are going to nerf the high profits of the barge? don't understand why but i now understand why so many barges were sold, and even more that the transactions weren't made public. so no matter how good you devs try to beautify the matter, it is a nerf of a ship that already have plenty of drawbacks. it is just ... stupid! smart ones were who sold theirs before all this.