What about Barges?

[jammi]

Oh and one thing that people sleep on is the anti-bump buff. From what I've heard, being bumped out of the way is one of the most dreaded things Barge players experience, and knowing you cannot be flipped around by a random enemy NPC is a huge bonus.

Its massive butt is now a barge's greatest weapon. Just swat those pirates with your rear end and watch them explode from the collision damage.

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News article library, feedback and content requests.

[Culbrelai]

Just offer refunds to people who are upset. As of now with the nerfs my lawful barge will be useless and my unlawful one will still be fine.

[Vlad]

When I came back over 2 months ago, the last thing I expected was to see the Barge being the ultimate money-printing machine it was never intended to be. The trade lane nerf is primarily because of balance. No matter how much the Barge costs, it having the option to make 2x more money than a 5ker in the same amount of time presents an issue for the balance of the economy. Yeah, it sucks if you were a nice obedient Barge enjoyer who did not abuse its overpowered state, but the same can't be said about everyone else. A *lot* of Barges powertraded ore this patch, and got dirty rich off of it.

Balance has to be done according to a ship's maximum potential, regardless of how many people utilize that potential and regardless of the area it is causing an issue in (economy balance, pvp balance, etc.). It happens in literally every online video game ever. To give an analogy: it only takes a few people to abuse a broken ship, like the release OSC Shuttle, in order for it to get a nerf. "Oh but I liked my OSC Shuttle and didn't abuse it for PvP, it's unfair!" - it doesn't matter, when the ship was worth 3 regular fighters in PvP and had to be rightfully nerfed.

The price is not a valid argument either. If we followed the logic of "Barge cost 15 billions so it has to be better at making money than everything else", then Battleships would be the most overpowered ships in the game because you paid 2 billion credits for one, while snubs would be worthless. It does suck to get your shiny expensive toy nerfed, but you have to be honest to yourself and acknowledge it was never intended to be better at powertrading ore than 5kers. Not in gameplay, or in lore, where it makes even less sense that it can speedrun Helium-3 - Helium through lanes.

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Economy foundation is built around 5kers. A Barge has 6 times more cargo than that. It is already a nightmare making it a balanced ship economy-wise, and I think Barge will continue to be too good in many areas post-release. For example supplying PoBs on short distances, and short distance deliveries in general. Or finding a money making route that, even with no trade lanes, will still earn a lot of money simply because it has 6 times more cargo than a 5ker. Maybe there's a new broken route people will find which is why Haste said he will re-balance it again in the future.

Oh and one thing that people sleep on is the anti-bump buff. From what I've heard, being bumped out of the way is one of the most dreaded things Barge players experience, and knowing you cannot be flipped around by a random enemy NPC is a huge bonus.

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tldr; trade lane nerf has been long coming, anti-bump buff is more than you think and Barge will still be great for many non-money printing activities.

Edit: Just in case, this is me speaking as a regular community member. I have nothing to do with Barge balance, or economy in general.

I completely understand your point, Antonio. It just seems right to me that we all need to know these details before buying a barge sold especially by a member of the dev team who normally knows quite well what will happen to these ships

[Chenzo-]

When I came back over 2 months ago, the last thing I expected was to see the Barge being the ultimate money-printing machine it was never intended to be. The trade lane nerf is primarily because of balance. No matter how much the Barge costs, it having the option to make 2x more money than a 5ker in the same amount of time presents an issue for the balance of the economy. Yeah, it sucks if you were a nice obedient Barge enjoyer who did not abuse its overpowered state, but the same can't be said about everyone else. A *lot* of Barges powertraded ore this patch, and got dirty rich off of it.

Balance has to be done according to a ship's maximum potential, regardless of how many people utilize that potential and regardless of the area it is causing an issue in (economy balance, pvp balance, etc.). It happens in literally every online video game ever. To give an analogy: it only takes a few people to abuse a broken ship, like the release OSC Shuttle, in order for it to get a nerf. "Oh but I liked my OSC Shuttle and didn't abuse it for PvP, it's unfair!" - it doesn't matter, when the ship was worth 3 regular fighters in PvP and had to be rightfully nerfed.

The price is not a valid argument either. If we followed the logic of "Barge cost 15 billions so it has to be better at making money than everything else", then Battleships would be the most overpowered ships in the game because you paid 2 billion credits for one, while snubs would be worthless. It does suck to get your shiny expensive toy nerfed, but you have to be honest to yourself and acknowledge it was never intended to be better at powertrading ore than 5kers. Not in gameplay, or in lore, where it makes even less sense that it can speedrun Helium-3 - Helium through lanes.

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Economy foundation is built around 5kers. A Barge has 6 times more cargo than that. It is already a nightmare making it a balanced ship economy-wise, and I think Barge will continue to be too good in many areas post-release. For example supplying PoBs on short distances, and short distance deliveries in general. Or finding a money making route that, even with no trade lanes, will still earn a lot of money simply because it has 6 times more cargo than a 5ker. Maybe there's a new broken route people will find which is why Haste said he will re-balance it again in the future.

Oh and one thing that people sleep on is the anti-bump buff. From what I've heard, being bumped out of the way is one of the most dreaded things Barge players experience, and knowing you cannot be flipped around by a random enemy NPC is a huge bonus.

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tldr; trade lane nerf has been long coming, anti-bump buff is more than you think and Barge will still be great for many non-money printing activities.

Edit: Just in case, this is me speaking as a regular community member. I have nothing to do with Barge balance, or economy in general.

Your points are well made, if indeed they were based on fact. They are not, allow me to elaborate.

I am somebody who has traded in H/H3 a lot by means of a barge, you will find the following to be factual;

1- The barge at BEST is 7x slower than a 5k- This is before you take being bumped 10k/50k away by NPC's which in turn takes around 30 minutes EACH TIME at minimum to correct, ergo, much slower again.
- A trade lane disruption is a minimum additional ten minute delay each time.
- If for any reason you don't shoot the lane behind you as you exit, a NPC will spin you for sure.
- If you do not successfully get back on to the trade lane before NPC's start spamming through them when it comes live again, you will be stuck there at the mercy of crusing to the next gate anyway. You will be repeatedly spun by passing NPC's going through the lanes.
- Lord only help you for how many hours you are stuck if a trade lane is disrupted in a asteroid field.

2- Pirates have a field day when they come across you, because you are entirely defenceless. it's a guaranteed payday or bluemessage. In a barge trading whatever commodity, you are running 6x the risk, there isn't a 6x reward, there is a 0.9x reward vs a 5k. I fly this ship for fun.

3- The real power traders use 5k's with Xeno Relics and Helium with a Cryer/Samura ID. this is roughly 100M per hour more profitable than a barge between Penny/Sig59 with H/H3.

4- Thankyou @Haste for confirming there will be no barge nerf, in effect the "buff" we have asked for, for being spun less.

Edit: I say "I fly this for fun" a lot Typing this is making me think to sell..

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[L1ght]

Let me clarify one thing, a Barge trading Helium and Helium- 3 makes a lot more than a 5ker trading Xeno Relics and Helium. You saying that a 5ker makes 100m/h more than a Barge is just factually wrong.

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[Chenzo-]

Let me clarify one thing, a Barge trading Helium and Helium- 3 makes a lot more than a 5ker trading Xeno Relics and Helium. You saying that a 5ker makes 100m/h more than a Barge is just factually wrong.

Have you ever flown a barge?

Have you ever flown a 5k Xeno Relic/H run?

go do those, then you will see.

Edit: Sorry for initial blunt message, however you also fail to see that a 5k ship can do the same run time and time again within the same time frame.

A barge run will sometimes be shorter(no disruptions) but the vast majority of the time be much longer.

A TL disruption in a 5k is no big deal, you can cruise to the next dock lane segment before the one which was knocked out is live again.

In a barge, a TL disruption is a genuine 10+ minute delay.

In other words, results are not maintainable in a barge.

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[Couden]

VIPs back in time was cool

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[monmarfori]

It's true, the Barge in general tends to be more profitable than a 5ker simply due to the cargo capacity. Having a speed disadvantage isn't that relevant when most trade routes utilize trade lanes.

[DSE-]

A barge run will sometimes be shorter(no disruptions) but the vast majority of the time be much longer.

A TL disruption in a 5k is no big deal, you can cruise to the next dock lane segment before the one which was knocked out is live again.

In a barge, a TL disruption is a genuine 10+ minute delay.

In other words, results are not maintainable in a barge.

When I first bought a barge I did repeated trips combining trade lane and open space flights through four systems and back. I also did the exact same trip in a 5k with the same commodities numerous times to compare efficiencies. The net result was a barge, in spite of the upsets by NPC's cow tossing it, and the TL disruptions by NPC's carried about 12,000 units of commodities more. The 5k did 3.7 return trips (approx) per one return trip on a barge. These were not high-return commodities.

Traveling through open space long distances and multiple systems with no trade lanes, the barge was less efficient due to long delays to cruise speed, avoiding asteroid fields etc. The 5k would do nearly 5 return trips per one barge return trip. High-return items (iridium ore for instance) made it worthwhile for a barge due to about 7,000 units per return trip.

[Prysin]

Let me clarify one thing, a Barge trading Helium and Helium- 3 makes a lot more than a 5ker trading Xeno Relics and Helium. You saying that a 5ker makes 100m/h more than a Barge is just factually wrong.

Have you ever flown a barge?

Have you ever flown a 5k Xeno Relic/H run?

go do those, then you will see.

Edit: Sorry for initial blunt message, however you also fail to see that a 5k ship can do the same run time and time again within the same time frame.

A barge run will sometimes be shorter(no disruptions) but the vast majority of the time be much longer.

A TL disruption in a 5k is no big deal, you can cruise to the next dock lane segment before the one which was knocked out is live again.

In a barge, a TL disruption is a genuine 10+ minute delay.

In other words, results are not maintainable in a barge.

you are straight up WRONG.

We run barges with Ore from Omega-11 to Stuttgart. Regardless what we do, we need to cross ~60k of open space + 9k of medium density asteroid field before taking lanes/gates.

The Barge consistently do 10,000-15,000 units more then a 5k for the same time investment. This has been consistent across multiple pilots, multiple months of doing it, multiple mining sessions. Even when factoring in delays due to lack of ore or NPC bumping.

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