' Wrote:.. Was only pointing out how I've personally interpreted governments to work in the Freelancer setting. *Shrug*
It makes sense that a galaxy that's been plagued with mindless bloodshed for hundreds of years would be mostly governed/controlled by militant bodies. It's the idea that "might equals right" that every sort of society succumbs to inevitably when confronted with seemingly endless misery. To me, that's exactly how it is from a roleplaying perspective in this setting. There isn't a single house that isn't engaged in some sort of civil war, which is almost always the result of too much Military control.
But yeah, factions like LSF/LN, RM, etc are the ones who're in charge in the gameworld, which makes sense as those factions have invested alot into their roles and such to get to where they are. It's simply assumed that these factions are acting on behalf of their respective leading bodies and so on, and personally I can't really see how adding a player-politician element to that would ever make things any better or more immersive.
Well I must say..that was an excellent response to mine. I mean that honestly with no sarcasm. I was very happy to read an honest reply humble reply. Thank you.
I wrote the following before your reply and think it might useful for folks in understanding my view of sirus politics and economy among the 5 houses.
RpParade wrote: Well, in a setting like Freelancer things will always work allot differently than they do in the real world. Yes, you have a president. You probably have a Senate as well, which consists of various representatives from each planet within Liberty space.
I agree with this.
RpParade Wrote: But, it's not like the real world. Even in the real world a president does not govern the 'entire' world, but instead only a chunk of it.
I dont follow this at all. It reads like you think were talking about the Liberty government having control outside Liberty? Were just talking about the Liberty House here and the 5 systems that make up Liberty House, excluding the guard and restricted systems.
RpParade Wrote: Even then, you have various factions like the United Nations who really control things (on the whole, anyway; they've more power than any single president in many aspects).
The UN controls almost nothing and has very little power over any of the Super Powers. This can easily be seen since 9/11. The USA has invaded and declared war on 2 countries and has done pretty much whatever it pleases. The UN and other nations have not been happy about it..but nobody has had any power to stop it. This is just an example to illustrate that the UN is not some all powerful organization. It is in no way a comment endorsing the USA or its actions. Id rather this thread not become a thread concerning the actual politics of the USA in any way except to assist in our discussion of how the Liberty Government would work.
RpParade Wrote: When it comes to space though, it's just too large a task for politicians, so allot of things are completely militarized. It has to be this way for many reasons, the biggest of which being that only a House Military will have the resources to patrol/control/protect any given region of space.
Except for the giant fact that the House Military and Police factions get all their money from the Liberty Government. The Liberty government decided their budget, what ships they can commission, how much they can have for defense and research. How many personal they can have. This budget comes from the Liberty Federal budget which is accumulated through taxation and includes income tax, corporate tax, social insurance tax, excise tax, estate and gift tax, custom duties, and miscellaneous receipts. This amounts to possibly many trillions of credits. So the economy of a House is really the true power. A military just does not have the resources to maintain a House economy. The military is given a cut by the civilian government. Without the civilian government the military would have no budget. And as much as it makes folks unhappy, the USA is so far the best system of civilian government if you want to collect astronomical amounts of taxes and give them to the military. A military run government would never be able to accumulate the resources to create and keep a massive military. All military governments either fail or are simple 3rd world countries with minimal militaries.
RpParade Wrote: In this setting, unless you're a particularly charismatic leader (like Rheinland's president in the singleplayer campaign), your Military is going to be your government rather than your actual Congress/Parliament or whatnot. In almost all cases the Military has the weight to toss around to secure this role, so regardless of how a political entity feels it isn't going to change much at all.
No it does not. A military is not able to maintain a civilian bureaucracy of taxation, trade, and diplomacy to the point where it is prosperous enough to maintain superpower status. And to me the 5 houses are all superpower level governments and societies. A military take over is possible but without a civilian government to maintain order and the integrity of records and protocols, that military will very quickly run out of money. It would then poorly chose to take money from what ever source presents it self. This would eventually lead to economic collapse and the deterioration of the house infrastructure. Eventually there would be no sources to take money from and the House would completely collapse. There must be a powerful and massive civilian government in place for an interstellar house to prosper. The government supports the military not the other way around.
RpParade Wrote: A president likely focuses on the well-being of his people on a day-to-day scale, leaving the actual difficult work up to his Military. In a system like Liberty, I wouldn't be surprised if (given it's allegedly democratic backbone) the president had power to decide who is and who isn't Admiral and such, but aside from that he's basically just a pawn because in all likelihood his Military knows "best" in a way that he will never understand. Most of these Houses have been up to their noses in conflict for hundreds of years now, and until that ends any given government will mostly consist of Military roots. Much like Sparta or Rome you could say, almost all of these civilizations are locked in atleast one or two bloodfeuds, and as a result society has become rather militant itself. It's the reason you see civilian factions like the Xenos lashing out and leading their own war and so on.
The freelancer setting is rife with revolution, outright war, terrorists, insurgents yet I do not feel that means the houses are controlled by their militaries. In the present era Israel has been at war with its revolutionaries for over 60 years now and its civilian government is still in control. Ireland and the UK maintained their civilian governments throughout the IRA revolution. France and Spain had revolutionaries in the past 50 years. So has Japan. To be it is mostly about economics and revenue. The present day global economy can only be exploited by an organized, modern, civilian government. Which is why in the modern era, despite revolution, terrorism, and insurgency, civilian governments based on capitalism and bolstered by investing greatly in economics and infrastructure to take advantage of a global economy are the dominant powers on earth. In freelancer it appears to me to be the same and even to a greater extreme with house corporations being vastly more powerful then modern era corporations. Many house corporations almost totally control some planets and even systems. The freelancer economy spans the entire Sirus area with massive trade between houses. The only way I can see for the Houses to take advantage of that fact is to be civilian based with mind boggling complex political structures. The militaries just do not have the time or manpower to engage in what it takes to maintain an interstellar capitalist system. Sure they could toss their weight around. However, that would only lead to economic collapse and a loss of budget. This would eventually lead to the military having zero chance to compete with the Houses that are still rich and flourishing. Economics must come first in order to wage interstellar war. Without constant supply of credits and resources a military is only effective for a very short time. Ships can not be replaces. Soldiers can not be replaced. Research and development come to a grinding halt. Education fails. Eventually there will not even be people around who know how to repair things let alone the resources to construct new ships to compete with their enemies.
This is just my thoughts on what actual freelancer politics may be like. It in no way endorses any form of political RP. I do not think it feasible to RP an actual government and economic system in any detail or with any view of reality. If anyone thinks it may be fun and would like to attempt it I fully support your endeavor. However, I will be tossing in my opinions quite often if it does not appear kosher or is overly simplified. To me that would just be folks wanting to be government officials so they can tell the military police factions what to do which is the very last thing a government is going to do. A governments primary role is diplomacy and trade. Without that there is no power over the military and police because there would not be any.
' Wrote:Well, at least judging by the viewing and comments for TMWNN, the community doesn't seem interested in mysteries;)
Well, yeah, I can understand that.
I've seen alot of players attempt to do unique, thoughtful things, but unfortunately Freelancer wasn't really designed for much other than dogfighting, so.. Alot of times, I see players trying these things and the execution of these plots end up being poorly played because the game itself doesn't support much at all. Even the simplest thing like typing can be an absolute nightmare when you're trying to get a point across, especially if you have to add detail to set the "scene."
.. But, I don't think it's a lost cause, because I've seen some really cool things (albeit few and far between, but still) go down before on the server. Things that made you actually think about the choices you make, and so on. I think lately alot of the "stagnation" I'm feeling on the server is a result of so many factions being inactive.
Some people say that making decisions like deploying the... I'm not up to date with battlegroups, but I'll throw the numer 103rd out there, to Texas to enforce the embargo. Now, given that we're a RP community and love it ever-so-much, IF these people had any sense of RP, they might go along just for the fun of it. Then again, they might go rogue like the 522nd, and start raiding depots and stations for H-Fuel and supplies if they don't like the order (Which I can't really see happening given this were a real circumstance).
In addition, telling the LSF to use a lower-key tag and go spy on Rheinland or tend to Fairbanks (its their brainchild after all) or do SOMETHING secret-like like they're supposed to. Or telling the LN to go enforce the borders, because taking out Rogues should be the police's job (mostly, main exception being the lack of other enforcers online). Sure, the LN info card says something along the lines of "... To protect Liberty and its interests".
Realistically, Liberty needs a war for their military to be implemented appropriately. The Missouri, Mississippi, Rio Grande... Umm, the one in California, those are all mostly just enforcing the space should a foreign entity attack. Much like US bases in Japan, or Germany, or California (rapid deployment... And don't take that in a FL sense!) those are mostly there to deploy the troops should the need arise. I rarely ever see an LN log off in a BS like they probably should.
"Well, my shift is over. Time to go home to the wife and kids on Manhattan! YUS!"
They joined the military. They will be deployed for months at a time, so unless one day in FL equates to 8 months or so in space, I'd really like to see this as well. AAAAND! Circling back to my original point, a government could make this happen. By saying something along the lines of, "Omg, rogue Navy pilot?! TREASON! He's gone AWOL on Manhattan. I sense Coouurrrt Martial!" Me? I RP a troop transport based out of the Mississippi. I usually take troops from there to Fairbanks, along with Light Arms or H-Fuel. No Court Martial for me, seeing as how I didn't desert my post.
If tensions with Rheinland are too high, a government could strengthen border security by posting battlegroups or just ordering about the LN to secure that area.
Now, of course, this would require cooperation from other houses, and we're stretched thin on Liberty as it is. But a Dictatorship or Monarchy shouldn't take too many people. At most, a few to act in Parliament for Bretonia along with the Queen. Emporer? He has his work cut out for him. These positions would of course be filled by trusted members of the community (not le admins, they've got their hands full) but people like Preatyre or Dusty although, a Xeno affiliate may not be the best choice for a Senator.:P
Well... If I go on, I'll lose track of the thought moreso than I already have. Sooo, I'll stop. I'm not even sure I said what I wanted to, but oh well. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Magoo! Wrote:If tensions with Rheinland are too high, a government could strengthen border security by posting battlegroups or just ordering about the LN to secure that area.
Now, of course, this would require cooperation from other houses, and we're stretched thin on Liberty as it is. But a Dictatorship or Monarchy shouldn't take too many people. At most, a few to act in Parliament for Bretonia along with the Queen. Emporer? He has his work cut out for him. These positions would of course be filled by trusted members of the community (not le admins, they've got their hands full) but people like Preatyre or Dusty although, a Xeno affiliate may not be the best choice for a Senator.
See thats the problem.
Unless a miracle happens I don't see the LN taking orders from a newly
set up Civilian Government - especially if the government is only one or
two people - and especially if the LN leaders don't trust the Government
person in charge or disagree with their community appointment...
This also points to the non-player-faction players who
are part of the LN, or LPI, or LSF. I sincerly doubt that they would take
kindly to yet another person/group trying to "order" them around.
Unless a miracle happens I also don't see the cooperation from other
houses. Bretonia is quiet. Rhienland is quiet - although becoming more.
Kusari have enough of their own problems. I just don't see cooperation
between the different houses happening at the moment.
Unless a miracle happens I dont see any of those "absolute power"
positions being filled, this community would argue over who should be in
those roles. And the question would also have to be asked... "for how long
can they be in that role?"
What happens if they refuse to step down?
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
' Wrote:In addition, telling the LSF to use a lower-key tag and go spy on Rheinland or tend to Fairbanks (its their brainchild after all) or do SOMETHING secret-like like they're supposed to.
We do all of that exactly as you described. However, because we do all of that as you described, nobody ever knows we are doing it and so nobody ever things we are doing it. It is a catch 22.
Instead of tuting you-guys' own horn, given a Liberty government, forum RP could be more interesting. El presidente, "Ustedes! Vayan al Rheinland! Rapida!" dos dias mas adelante; "Senor! Los Rheinlanders son muy traviesos. Cuando estuvimos en Rheinland, miramos ellos hicieron cosas muy malo. -Elaboration-" Accents excluded.
If nobody knows you're doing it, nobody but you can benefit from it.
But anywho, I suppose Hyung is right. I doubt any of them will be willing to give up their power. *sigh* Oh well.
Ob-la-di.
-Edit- My point being, people could "not know" you're doing it in-game, but if anybody read the forums they would be up-to-date. Then you could report your findings or whathaveyou in that thread. Again, still technically remaining secret, but sharing with the rest of the class.
I could actually declare a military state and name fifty reasons why the world is unsafe and the Navy and the LSF need to take immediate control and employ martial law. Would that make everyone happy and settle this debate?
Quote: I could actually declare a military state and name fifty reasons why the world is unsafe and the Navy and the LSF need to take immediate control and employ martial law. Would that make everyone happy and settle this debate?
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