Deterrence [DTR] - Feedback

[Eternal.Journey]

Out of respect to the staff, and the recent post by Petitioner, this will be posted here as Deterrence Feedback, seeing as it concerns DTR the most.

It's even more hilarious because it's my RP that got nuked after spending days to set it up/writing it etc. And despite asking staff if it's acceptable to post and secured green light ahead of posting. Then, the justification being that my RP was too powerful and it would essentially destroy two factions. That was never my intention - just to create something interesting. I log maybe once every few months and I do enjoy political RP on the super rare occasion that there's an opportunity for it. Now I can't be bothered even with the occasional RP. I got a warning for it too. That's spilled milk under the bridge now though. No ill feelings, no harm, no foul - just pointing out the facts.

The point is - this victimhood complex really doesn't suit you. Go touch some grass, lend your ear, have some chingwag or something. Said in the most positive possible tone. Genuinely not trying to be facetious or aggressive. I don't even know who you are as you weren't active when I was.

Also worth mentioning that I am just speaking from my perspective, not from DTR's as a whole. In case somehow someone misconstrues that.

This being the uh. Same RP that was Cloaked Freelancers who then had to get Extra Screenshots after the fact of it already being Metagaming to give no counter to you catching Noth out, of a Station you wouldn't have known existed InRP, nor be able to get that close to it InRP? Yeah, that's an epic example to use of "Roleplay being shut down", isn't it? Would not call it RP tbh. Would even say its worse than AI generated stuff that a couple people do. And you did that for DTR no less, to help them get Noth outed as aliens. So that you could invalidate their whole roleplay effort. Yeah, you are right. That IS hilarious. That you expected it to succeed. At least you learned your lesson from it, I hope?

Victimhood complex? I guess. I just want a taste of Deterrence's Staff Protection, alongside most everyone else who also doesn't get the same level of consideration your faction gets. I haven't once seen any other group offered the same kinda courtesy that Deterrence has been repeatedly shown. But so too does Deterrence suffer from the very same victimhood complex you say I do. The complaints about anything voted against your favour and the immediate responses to, say, the Iota PoB scenario, or the Rule 2.3 change, or the Community Warning previously a Deterrence Faction Warning. Let's not forget how quickly there's at least four individuals from DTR trying to beg for most of these instances to be changed, or altered to include others, or to be lessened in favour of newer playerbase etcetera. I mean. Really? Wanna play that it looks better on you guys? Nah. That is something you should check yourself and your own faction before you throw it onto others, Ravenna.

I tried talking to DTR Leaders. First, Grey, then Knusperflakes. Neither of them liked seeing me in their messages, neither of them took my troubles with the members of their faction as serious as they maybe should have, and when it got to the point where it kept happening, even after the attempts, they resorted to either flip the blame on me, others or threw insults at me. One of DTR Leaders was courteous not to do the latter, but y'know. Can't expect much when the faction LEADER throws you insults for bringing a 1v8 to their attention, alongside saying that he has no say in what his members do, or control over his members. I had more success through Bishop and Humphress, than I did out of your 2024/2025 leaders.

Touch grass? Yeah, I do. Every day if I can help it. Admittedly yesterday I didn't because of self-inflicted illness, but hey. I can share a picture with you if you like, from today? Me, physically touching grass with my hand.

I don't really know you either, but that's irrelevant. You are a human being, on the same blue and green marble I am on. I am also a human being, believe it or not. Capable of thoughts, emotions, feelings and frustrations despite my Alien Ingame Tendencies much like you, Deterrence and everyone else forsaken to keep playing this nineteen year old mod.

I invite you to ask around and find out Deterrence's general appearance to others. I am sure you'll get a mixed bag of feelings, along the lines of: "Yeah some of the big fights are okay, but others they really do just overload a few guys with a fleet, and its just not always fun to interact with them whatsoever." This is what I expect you'll find a fair bit of, and in far nicer words than what I'd expect some to say about your repeated behaviours. If you take nothing else from the staff feedback thread (and this post here in your feedback thread) that has been quite on fire of late, at least go talk and get something done to change the behaviour of your members. Everyone contributes. Nepo is under my guidance to do better towards you guys, but how can I convince him you're worth a chance of redemption when all's we get is the same old DTR from before the Community Warning?

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[Mort]

I want to say kudos to DTR and thank him for his efforts and hard work. You've done a lot for this mod, and you don't deserve all these bad words from these spiteful people. Don't listen to them; carry on. Stay strong, my friend.

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[Ravenna Nagash]

This being the uh. Same RP that was Cloaked Freelancers who then had to get Extra Screenshots after the fact of it already being Metagaming to give no counter to you catching Noth out, of a Station you wouldn't have known existed InRP, nor be able to get that close to it InRP? Yeah, that's an epic example to use of "Roleplay being shut down", isn't it? Would not call it RP tbh. Would even say its worse than AI generated stuff that a couple people do. And you did that for DTR no less, to help them get Noth outed as aliens. So that you could invalidate their whole roleplay effort. Yeah, you are right. That IS hilarious. That you expected it to succeed. At least you learned your lesson from it, I hope?

There was absolutely no metagaming involved. The ships were followed in-game with a cloak. No rule or any rule clarification stated at the time that you can't use a cloak in roleplay. In fact, Staff was even asked before posting the roleplay and checked if it's okay and they said that it is. Then, other Staff decided it's not. Also you presume malicious intent when there is absolutely none. I don't know who you are nor I care particularly. I don't hold any grudge nor it is my intention to invalidate anyone's RP. As for the lesson - the only lesson I learned is that I really can't be bothered with RP anymore as you got preferential treatment in my view. Again, no harm, no foul. Rules also got clarified so that's always a plus.

Victimhood complex? I guess. I just want a taste of Deterrence's Staff Protection

As established you already have it.

or the Community Warning previously a Deterrence Faction Warning.

This is another no-brainer. You really can't warn or sanction a faction on the basis of a rule that doesn't exist. The decision to make it into a community warning was the correct one. That's not preferential treatment. That's unfair treatment rectified.

Touch grass? Yeah, I do. Every day if I can help it. Admittedly yesterday I didn't because of self-inflicted illness, but hey. I can share a picture with you if you like, from today? Me, physically touching grass with my hand.

I don't really know you either, but that's irrelevant. You are a human being, on the same blue and green marble I am on. I am also a human being, believe it or not. Capable of thoughts, emotions, feelings and frustrations despite my Alien Ingame Tendencies much like you, Deterrence and everyone else forsaken to keep playing this nineteen year old mod.

I genuinely don't have anything against you. Also you providing evidence that you are actually going outside is really not necessary. I am just some random on the internet. I really would recommend spending some time off as it seems the game is impacting you heavily. It is just a game. There's nothing lost, no ships are lost, nothing of value is lost.

I invite you to ask around and find out Deterrence's general appearance to others. I am sure you'll get a mixed bag of feelings, along the lines of: "Yeah some of the big fights are okay, but others they really do just overload a few guys with a fleet, and its just not always fun to interact with them whatsoever." This is what I expect you'll find a fair bit of, and in far nicer words than what I'd expect some to say about your repeated behaviours. If you take nothing else from the staff feedback thread (and this post here in your feedback thread) that has been quite on fire of late, at least go talk and get something done to change the behaviour of your members.

Every rule breaking is actually heavily discussed in DTR. In fact, just a day ago, I personally updated the guide on how to RP better because that's an area I personally enjoy and I can help the rest. We also added a few other guides on PVP related stuff to improve things there as well. People are actually being spoken to. DTR is heavily committed to play according the rules and this has been true with me and every single leader that DTR has had after me.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on how PVP is going though for multiple factors that I've already mentioned. If DTR was dominating fight after fight, it would be problematic. Considering that DTR wins on average 1-2 fights for every 7-8 fights it loses, I really don't think there's a massive issue here. Do I think every fight is going amazing or everyone is performing stellar? Absolutely not. But when I look at trends, I look at data and facts, not emotions. Improving is a slow re-occurring process.

Considering that DTR is at its core a casual group with a focus towards new players, as mentioned this is always going to be a recurring aspect. DTR at the moment is made up entirely of new players relative to me (as in the entire roster is 99% people that joined the faction after I retired). There's a high turnover rate and retention is difficult even in a group like DTR. The metric that matters is not high occurrence of sanctions or warnings but frequency of repeat offenders.

Overall, the player base is very low. It's in nobody's interest to not get along or to leave the server in my view. This small number of players though tends to really amplify issues like that.

And just to finalize as I am really not interested in a super long back-and-forth here - feel free to reach out to me in discord if you would like to discuss anything in particular. To reiterate, I genuinely have nothing against you. If you think that there's some grudge or malice going on, this couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know even know who the Noth players are nor do I particularly care. Enjoy your evening.

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Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.

[Noth Squadron]

There was absolutely no metagaming involved. The ships were followed in-game with a cloak. No rule or any rule clarification stated at the time that you can't use a cloak in roleplay. In fact, Staff was even asked before posting the roleplay and checked if it's okay and they said that it is. Then, other Staff decided it's not.

Now I'm going to call bull on half of this stuff. You don't need rules at every turn to be able to channel your inner common sense, which at the time, none of your people had. After some time diving deeper into this rabbithole it was found out that you tried run both Phoenix into the ground by using Noth as a proxy, even as much as using one screenshot with a Noth and a Phoenix exchanging no more than two words as a sign that we're allied, asking multiple times if THAT bit is valid, too.

Devs are also not exactly the kind of people you can go to and ask for rule clarification and "greenlighting". Not because they don't know, but because that is not their field and can not actually give you a proper go-ahead. You were told this several times by several people. Just take the hint already and stop vomiting the same complaint over and over thinking it will stick at some point. The only "Staff" you should ever ask for rule-checking your content should come in the color of Orange or Green. Asking Yellow instead and shedding crocodile tears because the other two qualified colors didn't agree is just a massive "skill issue", as it were.

[Ravenna Nagash]

Now I'm going to call bull on half of this stuff. You don't need rules at every turn to be able to channel your inner common sense, which at the time, none of your people had. After some time diving deeper into this rabbithole it was found out that you tried run both Phoenix into the ground by using Noth as a proxy, even as much as using one screenshot with a Noth and a Phoenix exchanging no more than two words as a sign that we're allied, asking multiple times if THAT bit is valid, too.

The melodrama is honestly humorous. You were followed with a cloak and openly roleplayed that you are working with Phoenix in-game. In-game chat can be used for roleplay. No rule/rule clarification ever stated that cloaks can't be used in RP. Which is why clarifications were made post-factum.

Devs are also not exactly the kind of people you can go to and ask for rule clarification and "greenlighting". Not because they don't know, but because that is not their field and can not actually give you a proper go-ahead.

Roleplay would fall under the responsibility of Story. Nevertheless, Staff could have pointed to other Staff if they were the incorrect stakeholder to ask, simple as that.

The fact remains that there was no rule stating that the actions taken were sanctionable or wrong, period. And it was checked with Staff who stated that it's okay before posting. That's all there is to it. If you (whoever you are on a faction account) are particularly offended over this situation, again, feel free to reach out over discord.

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Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.

[Noth Squadron]

You're trying to justify a close-up shot of Lichtenfelde's Nomad Reactor. That's all I'm saying. Your secondary picture portrayed a nebula and a text docking message with no base in sight.

I'm not offended. I'm just dissappointed that it takes you a written rule to know that what you did wasn't exactly right.

[EisenSeele]

Just chiming in to provide some information to prevent misconceptions. Factual statements will be in green, and my own takes will be in regular text color.

There was absolutely no metagaming involved. The ships were followed in-game with a cloak. No rule or any rule clarification stated at the time that you can't use a cloak in roleplay. In fact, Staff was even asked before posting the roleplay and checked if it's okay and they said that it is. Then, other Staff decided it's not. Also you presume malicious intent when there is absolutely none. I don't know who you are nor I care particularly. I don't hold any grudge nor it is my intention to invalidate anyone's RP. As for the lesson - the only lesson I learned is that I really can't be bothered with RP anymore as you got preferential treatment in my view. Again, no harm, no foul. Rules also got clarified so that's always a plus.

The action was absolutely decided to be metagaming by the entirety of the staff team (moderation/administration) - at no point did you 'ask staff' (someone from the moderation or administration team) you asked Jammi (a developer that is uninvolved in administration) in a very roundabout hypothetical sort of manner and he gave you a noncommital non-answer because he wasn't particularly interested (he repeatedly clarified this after the ruling as well). We decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that everything was done in good faith, or rather, not done in bad enough faith to constitute anything more than a warning - this was communicated in DTR chat, and we received what we believed was indication that you understood, but it seems as though we've regressed somewhat from that.

This is another no-brainer. You really can't warn or sanction a faction on the basis of a rule that doesn't exist. The decision to make it into a community warning was the correct one. That's not preferential treatment. That's unfair treatment rectified.

This is also untrue - the community did recieve an explicit warning regarding this behavior after the Inverness event which predates the DTR turned community warning. The reversion was a bit controversial within the staff team, but it was done in response to some very negative reaction from DTR chat - and it seemed at the time that it would have been counterproductive to warn DTR specifically as it was resulting in people getting extremely defensive and doubling down.
Given the results, I doubt that we'll be changing our rulings like this ever again under similar circumstances.

That being said, I've seen a lot of paranoia in DTR so far - a substantial amount does seem to be justified, we've had more than a few players have actual vendettas against DTR which has resulted in shitty behavior. Unfortunately, this has resulted in some very shitty behavior in turn to other players that are uninvolved - and it's been a feedback loop of grudges fueling more grudges. We sincerely have hoped to foster an atmosphere where players can talk things out and have a working relationship even when their characters may hate one another, but those efforts have largely been disappointing. I genuinely believe that there were things I could have done differently with facilitating communication between people so that killing and dying is fun but not personal, and people could collaborate to tell fun stories together. In that regard, I have not done a good job - and I'm starting to think that I don't really have the capacity to serve that function in a way that will fix things - for that, I am sorry.

While it is true that DTR has benefited from an unusual degree of staff attention with regards to attempting solutions that are reformative rather than punitive, there is no other faction in the situation of needing help as much as DTR does right now. I would like to think that if we saw other factions struggling to this degree, that we would work just as hard to try to get everyone on the same page first, and consider punishments second.

It is also true that we've noticed a lot of reports concerning DTR are found to be more spite (or perhaps tunnelvision) than with merit. We recently did a staff review of all VRs concerning DTR for the last year - and yes, DTR does complain about ganks constantly and engages in that same behavior quite a bit - and because our current definitions of ganking are still a work in progress, but err on the side of more extreme rather than less, none of it really turns out to be actionably bad enough. One of the most tame instances of violation reports on DTR that we've seen in recent memory was a DTR cap and a bomber on a cap, with a second and third DTR caps sitting and watching while doing nothing. It was reported as a 4v1. This happens enough to not be unusual - and not only against DTR, it only seems that people fixate on when DTR is involved and the sanction doesn't go through. Conversely, DTR leadership also recently admitted to 'playing sanctionlancer' and was warned about consequences if it happened again.

There's a lot of misunderstanding and bad faith here - but I still hold out the hope that one day people will click and we can just go back to playing and having fun together. I've personally learned a lot during our work with trying to accomplish this, and there's much that I would have done differently knowing what I know now. But in any case, ALL of you need to start putting in more effort into giving one another the benefit of the doubt and trying to restore some good faith back into this community. Doubling down, getting defensive, and trying to gaslight everyone into believing you've done nothing wrong and are the recipient of unjustified troubles will get you nowhere in this game - or life.

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FEEDBACK

[Ravenna Nagash]

at no point did you 'ask staff' (someone from the moderation or administration team)

Developers are part of the Staff team. In my 4 years here and as someone who also was part of the Staff team (as a non-mod/admin), I've never ever heard that only mods and admins are part of Staff and the rest are not. Maybe it's mentioned somewhere but I've genuinely not seen this.

in a very roundabout hypothetical sort of manner and he gave you a noncommital non-answer

I could have not been more explicit with my questions and the answer that I received was absolutely clear cut and everyone else understood it exactly the same way as I did including other members of Staff when I showed the screens to them. There was nothing vague about my descriptions and I fully explained everything in detail. If I was on the other position and I wasn't sure, I would have simply suggested to the person to go to speak to Kai and sort it out with him. There's an implicit power relationship here. As you are fully aware, following this incident, everything is double, sometimes tripled checked now with you.

We decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that everything was done in good faith, or rather, not done in bad enough faith to constitute anything more than a warning - this was communicated in DTR chat, and we received what we believed was indication that you understood, but it seems as though we've regressed somewhat from that.

There is no regression. I am discussing the method, not the conclusion. I was simply after interesting RP. Your argument was that my RP was too powerful and it would destroy the two factions in question. I have absolutely no problem with this ruling and I accept that the RP can be removed under that premise. People can say whatever they want about me and that's fine but claiming that I tried to run two factions into the ground is just melodramatic in my view. My goal has never been to destroy people or their factions ever - back when was I active and definitely not now that I am retired. There's no logical justification to want to. There's barely any people playing, who would want even less?

there is no other faction in the situation of needing help as much as DTR does right now.

So long as DTR continues to focus on new players, onboarding, retaining, etc. - this would always be the case by design.

There's a lot of misunderstanding and bad faith here - but I still hold out the hope that one day people will click and we can just go back to playing and having fun together. I've personally learned a lot during our work with trying to accomplish this, and there's much that I would have done differently knowing what I know now. But in any case, ALL of you need to start putting in more effort into giving one another the benefit of the doubt and trying to restore some good faith back into this community. Doubling down, getting defensive, and trying to gaslight everyone into believing you've done nothing wrong and are the recipient of unjustified troubles will get you nowhere in this game - or life.

I absolutely agree with this statement. This server has like what - 20 people on average? On a legit big sandbox, plenty of things to do and generally with the exception of sieges, you lose absolutely nothing when losing fights. The current leadership of DTR is also taking rules extremely seriously, which I think as also a member of DTR, you can see for yourself. If you think there's something in our guides that can be improved, please by all means let me know and I will facilitate. I also empathize with Staff in general. Being the mediator is never easy.

I genuinely believe that there were things I could have done differently with facilitating communication between people so that killing and dying is fun but not personal, and people could collaborate to tell fun stories together. In that regard, I have not done a good job - and I'm starting to think that I don't really have the capacity to serve that function in a way that will fix things - for that, I am sorry.

I don't agree with every Staff decision but I've said this many times - I personally think that on the whole the current Staff team is doing their best with the skills/tools that they have. Being in management and in charge sucks and it's a tough often ungrateful job.

Overall, I hope everyone cools down over time and just try to enjoy their game. If anyone has a problem with something, please feel free to reach out over discord. Enjoy your week.

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Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.

[Nika]

The only way DTR is focused and committed to new players is reeling them into the faction. Not quite sure what work on teaching and training rookies is constantly referred to but every encounter just seems like it never goes past explanation on engagement rules and even that is so barebones like it never gone past "two lines and ten seconds".

And those people who seldom understand the rules, the lore and diplomacy of their faction, the obvious limits of do and don'ts have accesw to capital ships.

I want DTR to deserve the benefit of doubt but at this point, it just diesn't as it is plagued with progressing issues that are neither addressed neither will be resolved if the current faction policies are allowed to carry on.

But it just seems there's no one to step up snd take a turn for he better.

[Lemon]

The math is so that purely based on activity, DTR should receive on average 20X more sanctions, warnings and bans than an OF that just maintains activity
And then the fact you take on beginners kicks in on TOP.
For me the lowest point of Disco was when @Haste went out his way to publicly insult 1st on official discord as the lead dev at a point when me, Renegade, Orszel, Lock and many others spent loads of time on new guys - and he's the tip of the iceberg of veteran people who don't actively work with beginners and make them feel Included. It takes a LOT of effort, and only a small %stick around. Effort you don't see behind the scenes of explaining, making them feel included and welcome, setting up ships and teaching the basics. Constantly, there is way too much you need to learn in disco when you want to fly around and feel included.

What you guys say of no effort put in just shows how out of touch you are - you weren't exactly having patience with beginners either Celeste - you want them to have a good time while making them improve. Mistakes just happen, the math is so that you will get sanctions because of the activity multiplier.


Staff just have to implement a different sanctions system, obscuring part of the names for example, or publishing ONLY players they can't associate with a faction or username if they worry they wouldn't be seen by the player. Because you first have the base of purely mathematically higher activity factions having higher sanction rate being discouraged, and then working with beginners on top being discouraged