Staff Feedback Thread

[Lusitano]

Hey

Zoners can't dock certain ships in certain systems, one case is transports above 3.6k cargo hold can't dock on house space, it is on the ID but also the game don't let you do it. So why not something similiar to freelancers? i have already said this many times, and nothing is done, i'm contantly seeing big transports flow by freelancer IDs, yesterday, for example, saw one with a BW train. it is unfair those who follow the rules, that have to fly certains IDs or certain ships because there are rules, but those who don't follow the rules there is no problem at all. I know i can report them, and not long ago i did that, but nothing was done, so report then is just a waste of time. So Instead of worrying about whether a player's english is good or not, maybe they should worry about the rules themselves.

thank you

[Deity]

Hey

Zoners can't dock certain ships in certain systems, one case is transports above 3.6k cargo hold can't dock on house space, it is on the ID but also the game don't let you do it. So why not something similiar to freelancers? i have already said this many times, and nothing is done, i'm contantly seeing big transports flow by freelancer IDs, yesterday, for example, saw one with a BW train. it is unfair those who follow the rules, that have to fly certains IDs or certain ships because there are rules, but those who don't follow the rules there is no problem at all. I know i can report them, and not long ago i did that, but nothing was done, so report then is just a waste of time. So Instead of worrying about whether a player's english is good or not, maybe they should worry about the rules themselves.

thank you

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, even when you politely tell someone they're breaking the rules, most of the time you end up getting a warning instead of them. It really kills the motivation to report anything, because in the end, the people who follow the rules are the ones who suffer the most, while those who break them often get away with it.

Your point about implementing restrictions directly into the game mechanics – like with Zoners and their docking limitations – makes a lot of sense. That way, there's no room for excuses or “accidental” rule breaking. It would be much fairer for everyone who plays by the rules.

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Captain Echo
“Flying free between the stars. No flag, no chains.”

Independent | Smuggler | Explorer

[firesilver]

Pulling the curtain away a bit, I will say that select threads I had created within the staff subforums when I was last a green was (mostly) ignored.

• Official Faction discussion was mostly me replying to my own thread with different ideas and elements. Pinged the staff multiple times to co-operate and send some ideas in. Unless things have changed since my last departure, I would bet money my name is the only one in that thread. Has there been any developments on that by the way? Last I heard the bar set in the proposal apparently meant that no current (at the time) OFs qualified.
  
• Then there's the table I put together for repeat offences, how bad the punishment gets depending on the offence of the reported party. These would standardize a lot of things. I understand that each VR that comes along is unique and doesn't fit the table, but there's been a good lot of examples where the community has pointed out inconsistencies with sanctions. A handful having been withdrawn. These need to be internally addressed and agree on a standard. Minute alterations to the standard are fine, but at least it will prevent the wildly inconsistent punishments for the community to throw back at you.
  

My experience with staff recently on an individual basis has been adequate, some more, some less than others. There are a couple staff I would like to see not utilize gaslighting and manipulation when in a discussion or argument as this happened with me recently on the rules discussion thread. Not great conduct from someone in an elevated position.

I'm not one to single people out on this thread, as some other community members have been. I just hope that shit improves because I honestly don't like what I see.

Hey Kusari, I'll try address each of these as best as I can.

[*] Official Faction discussion was mostly me replying to my own thread with different ideas and elements. Pinged the staff multiple times to co-operate and send some ideas in. Unless things have changed since my last departure, I would bet money my name is the only one in that thread. Has there been any developments on that by the way? Last I heard the bar set in the proposal apparently meant that no current (at the time) OFs qualified.

The OF rework as you know is a big undertaking and is still something we're working towards in the background. There's a lot of things to take into consideration in how we roll this out and what implications it has on existing and future factions, and we want to make sure we've got the plan as well developed as possible before rolling it out to go live. I cannot share any ETA on this at the moment but rest assured it is still progressing.

[*] Then there's the table I put together for repeat offences, how bad the punishment gets depending on the offence of the reported party. These would standardize a lot of things. I understand that each VR that comes along is unique and doesn't fit the table, but there's been a good lot of examples where the community has pointed out inconsistencies with sanctions. A handful having been withdrawn. These need to be internally addressed and agree on a standard. Minute alterations to the standard are fine, but at least it will prevent the wildly inconsistent punishments for the community to throw back at you.

Additional structure to help standardize sanction outcomes is something that we are looking at, and as you know was looked at previously when you had raised it. There's some huge benefits to having such a system as it could potentially speed up handing out sanctions and informing people of the outcome, however it isn't without it's downsides as it would mean less ability for the staff to try make sanctions better fit for purpose depending on what the type of rule break is, if it's a pattern of repeated behaviour, and what sort of impact it had on the community as a whole. I can't share any specific details about these discussions, but hopefully it's somewhat reassuring that it is an active topic of discussion.

My experience with staff recently on an individual basis has been adequate, some more, some less than others. There are a couple staff I would like to see not utilize gaslighting and manipulation when in a discussion or argument as this happened with me recently on the rules discussion thread. Not great conduct from someone in an elevated position.

I'm not one to single people out on this thread, as some other community members have been. I just hope that shit improves because I honestly don't like what I see.

It's a shame that you're left feeling that way, and I can only apologize for that. As always I would encourage anyone to contact myself (or any Admin) if they felt they were treated unfairly by someone on the staff team. This will then be raised internally in confidence and we'll review the situation to find out what happened and if we believe someone was acting inappropriately. Feel free to PM me or reach out any other way if you'd like a chat to go through it.

[Mort]

I agree with @vladimir26, @HonourWolf, @L1ght, and @Lemon here. Though I think the Staff team isn't THAT evil, except for the 2 malicious persons like @jammi and @Petitioner who are biased towards certain players and groups, towards people who actually care for Freelancer lore, vibe, balancing fights, and improving this community. I believe the server owner, @Alex., should reconsider their positions as members of the Staff team, or at least give these gentlemen(@jammi and @Petitioner) a warning/sanction not to commit EGREGIOUS actions again.

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[Luke.]

Hey

Zoners can't dock certain ships in certain systems, one case is transports above 3.6k cargo hold can't dock on house space, it is on the ID but also the game don't let you do it. So why not something similiar to freelancers? i have already said this many times, and nothing is done, i'm contantly seeing big transports flow by freelancer IDs, yesterday, for example, saw one with a BW train. it is unfair those who follow the rules, that have to fly certains IDs or certain ships because there are rules, but those who don't follow the rules there is no problem at all. I know i can report them, and not long ago i did that, but nothing was done, so report then is just a waste of time. So Instead of worrying about whether a player's english is good or not, maybe they should worry about the rules themselves.

thank you

Reports with evidence of people breaking ID restrictions will result in action. That said, this does include things like messaging people privately especially if they're found to be a new player, or if it's clearly an honest mistake or something along those lines. Reality is, not everyone goes to a forum these days. It's an antiquated community tool and times have changed. It does say to do so when you join the game server, but people do not read. However, retention is another point of discussion and so it's best to advise new players who are perhaps unknowingly breaking rules (it's obvious if there's malicious intent, and this is treated differently of course) on how to do things correctly without public sanction. The members of old are used to it and steeled to it. A newer generation may not be.

Sometimes a quick conversation with an offender solves it rather than having to escalate every minor first-time breach (compared to other rules). My point is, just because you don't see something happen, doesn't mean nothing did. If you see the same people making the same mistake, we encourage you to report it. If patterns of people not learning their lesson are found, then measures will naturally be harsher. However as mentioned days ago, not every report is successful. This is usually due to a lack of evidence, or a rule breach not actually being found.

To quickly address Deity's post - people telling others that they're breaking rules is not sanctionable behaviour. We encourage the community to help each other. However, threatening people with reports is a different story. I don't see how else someone just trying to help would be punished unless they've gone on the offensive if the defendant didn't respond in kind.

I do agree with you that IDs should limit you from purchasing ships above a specified cargo limit. Would be nice, eh. Then we'd never have this particular problem at all.

To re-iterate my earlier post - things like inconsistency and efficiency are active topics of discussion and we very much agree that it needs to improve. We do sincerely apologise for the issues caused as of late due to erroneous and overly harsh punishments. Nothing happens overnight, but rest assured it is at the forefront of staff discussions at the moment.

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[vladimir26]

Hello!

Can I also suggest to refrain from locking the feedback thread? Some valid points were raised, but in reply it was locked, due to improper feedback. Sometimes people might be rude, agreed, but it wasn't the case. If something rude was indeed posted, consider asking the owner to edit it, or do it yourself. But sometimes the truth can be very harsh. Locking the thread only plays for time, so people get over their issues. Who does this delay benefits in the end?

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[Luke.]

This is a feedback thread. Not an "attack individuals" thread. It's locked to let people cool down, instead of matters escalating toward personal insults (like this occasion did) for no reason. Wouldn't want sanctionable vitriol to start being thrown in the spur of the moment. This includes staff too by the way, no one is immune.

Can't speak for previous locks as I wasn't staff at the time. This time however, it was clearly going in an undesirable direction that derails the purpose of the thread.

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[Lusitano]

Luke, sometime ago, i saw a player with two ids, i messaged him and i was ignored, then i noticed that a staff member was online, i messaged him, and he took care of it. as i thought. this case was clear a rookie mistake, having two ids, he didin't noticed that he still have that extra id. now buying a ship and knowing that piece of equip is important, so you have to tranfer, and not nothing what it means? hmmmmmm!!! really a mistake? even so let's give a chance and at least send him to bastille, like so many times was posted on the sanctions section, that you guys notice it is a new player and you give him the benefit of the doubt. but you post it ... not posting gives the impression that nothing is being done, and reporting is just a waste of time.

Also i hope this was not in vain, and maybe next patch, something like what exist to the Zoners, also exists to freelancers. i mean, i do agree with that part to the zoners, it is a guarantee that the rule is not broken, so let's do it to freelancers as well... i can't help you guys with that because for me computers are ... just computers, but probably is not that different to do it, like it was made for the zoners,

thank you very much all, Deity and Luke, and i rest my case take care and have fun

[Lemon]

Luke, sometime ago, i saw a player with two ids, i messaged him and i was ignored, then i noticed that a staff member was online, i messaged him, and he took care of it. as i thought. this case was clear a rookie mistake, having two ids, he didin't noticed that he still have that extra id. now buying a ship and knowing that piece of equip is important, so you have to tranfer, and not nothing what it means? hmmmmmm!!! really a mistake? even so let's give a chance and at least send him to bastille, like so many times was posted on the sanctions section, that you guys notice it is a new player and you give him the benefit of the doubt. but you post it ... not posting gives the impression that nothing is being done, and reporting is just a waste of time.

Also i hope this was not in vain, and maybe next patch, something like what exist to the Zoners, also exists to freelancers. i mean, i do agree with that part to the zoners, it is a guarantee that the rule is not broken, so let's do it to freelancers as well... i can't help you guys with that because for me computers are ... just computers, but probably is not that different to do it, like it was made for the zoners,

thank you very much all, Deity and Luke, and i rest my case take care and have fun

Yeah that's it more or less - the selective public shaming, making example of people and making sure they get hurt, and then admin folks who have insulted the people/factions privately or publicly not only vote it get to write up the sanction and reply in it. And then so many offenses just being dealt with on the back end or not processed etc.

It's the whole don't be a dick thing heavy decision 2.0. system that punishes members of the community who well - play more and happen to be disliked by people on staff.

We don't have a lead dev that's impartial and reasonable, can take a step back with calm head who could step in - that's why it seems like there is blunder after blunder after blunder from staff when you combine this with the heavy decision system.



Treat people the same and not selectively, and choose proper language where you are on the community's side and it would make people want to play again instead of worrying to log because someone might decide to make an example of you and tell you how your actions are egregious when you just want to unwind playing a video game after work.

[Luke.]

I personally understand the idea that everything should be public, or nothing should. That's a valid point. However if you are reporting purely to make sure someone is punished which is the impression being given here, rather than for the betterment of the server and people learning from mistakes, then I think that breeds the very same negative environment as the questionable sanctions did, imo.

I'll premise the rest by saying that perhaps this has accidentally been how certain sanctions have come across, at which point we should review that going forward. Once again, a valid observation. Also once again, erroneous decisions have been made as of late that were unfair or too harsh, even if intent from staff is to course correct the server from continuing down a path that it's not supposed to rather than appearing to smite certain people. Regardless, mistakes were made. Collectively, staff have apologised for that. You don't have to grant forgiveness, but it's about as much as they can do alongside changing the decision and discussing future steps which, to my knowledge, did happen and is happening. If you happen to have issues with individuals, then maybe it's best to, instead of waiting for server-wide operational changes, message those members of staff directly via Discord or whatever else and iron out grievances. Personal relations are separate. At least they should be anyway. I have nothing to do with that, so I don't know but I can't help but feel that continually pointing out individuals and memeing/attacking them isn't productive either.

Staff's goals are not to make sure particular people get hurt. It's not about bias. Staff decisions are made collectively (not just by the one that posts the sanction) via votes and discussion via two different mediums. If people are sanctioned multiple times, or particular groups have more watchful eyes on them and reports that come through regarding their behaviour are more regular, then that is because they are clearly seen as an issue by the community as well. Unfortunately some will bend or breach rules more than others. That's just how it is for any community in any game. Compromises can't be made when some should know better as they've been around a longer time and/or have been sanctioned before. We all like to play games after a busy day, but rules are rules. They exist to ensure that everyone can enjoy a game after work. Together.

The idea and system is never about unfair treatment or making an example of people. At no point is it about finding a reason to punish people where there isn't one, but is rather based on evidence given and what is found through investigation. Private warnings are usually given in instances of first-time offences by new players, not wanting to make them feel bad for an honest mistake they weren't aware of. The public sanction system as I said previously, is for more official warnings and onward. To re-iterate, none of this is to say that the system is working all the time, hence the extensive discussion that you don't see. The public sanctions are just how it's been from the start and has carried over throughout all these years. Antiquated? Maybe. Unnecessary? In this day and age, perhaps. Again, maybe there is room for change on that front. That's once again part of ongoing discussions. As is probably obvious by now, there's a lot of talking points at the moment. Staff also have lives on top of large topics like this requiring a lot of work though, and so it's not as fast as you'd perhaps like it to be. I wish we lived in a world where unmitigated speed was still possible but we're not young and free of responsibilities anymore. The bottom line is though - we are listening.

I'll end this on a personal anecdote - I for one know what it looks like from a community perspective. It's the very reason I left back in 2016 when the "heavy decision" you've referred to happened the first time. A lot of drama followed. A dev strike, and more. I vacated Disco alongside others, not willing to put up with it any longer. Despite that, even I am not seeing that same cycle beginning to happen having applied for staff not long after coming back as a more grown-up, matured and less antagonistic person myself who just wants to lend a helping hand. I want the best for this server and community as one of the last standing of a game we all love and wish to see flourish again, as much as you do.

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