' Wrote:Whereas a faction doing the same thing wouldnt. I call bias.
Anyways, I still hold my same-as-always stance on this. Official factions, whether they consider themselves the "whole" military or navy or whatever they represent or not - want to run things. That's all it comes down to - they want their rules to be the official rules, they want their ranking system to apply to everyone, they want to be the ones deciding who uses what and who does what while flying under the same affiliation.
That all boils down to limiting the ability of independents to enjoy the game in the way that they want to. It's factions trying to control the 'lesser' players, when they have no right to.
This server is coming closer by the day to a faction-only environment. More and more groups are starting to behave like the RM and liberty lawfuls, which are tightening their restrictions on who can do what. Pretty soon, there wont be any independents left because they get tired of listening to other players who dont have the same view on RP as they do. It's a matter of conflicting perspectives.
The independents dont want to be tied down by faction rules. They come here to have fun, not to do a 'job' - that isnt what this game or mod is for. If an independent wants to play a lawful character - say a rheinland military officer, or a liberty navy captain - he wants to be able to come online, do a patrol or two, interact with people, stop some smugglers or pirates - and in general have FUN. Instead, he's "oppressed" by faction members who either harass him about his ship choice, tell him he's RP'ing "wrong", or brand him some kind of outlaw even though he has never done anything to deserve that kind of treatment.
In the end, all I see is "join us, or dont play" from the factions, while the indies struggle against it in an effort to make their own RP, to play their character as they see fit - not as some faction tells them how to.
*Applause!*
Funny thing, Tenacity. You see, not three days ago, there was this independent RM character in New Berlin. We were three [RM] there, then I figured, "Heck, maybe the guy would like to play with us." I sent an invitation his way, he took it. We played together for some one hour and a half, two hours, busting smugglers, hunting pirates, doing patrols, having fun. Then he said he was going out. I thanked him for his help and playfully said, "Herr <can't remember his character's name>, why is it that I haven't seen the papers for your application?" He laughed and said, "Nah, I'm an independent all the way." I said, "Very well, then. If you change your mind, look for us."
I can't speak for the other regions of Sirius, but the faction players in Rheinland (both lawfuls and unlawfuls) cooperate to create not only a sensible, but also nice play ground around there.
This week alone I've grouped with four different independent characters, yesterday I not only didn't get involved and pulled out a third RM ship from an engagement against a lone RHA ship because it was overkill and unfair to the other player. Me and that same RHA worked together later, PMing a guy in a Zoner IDed Huntress to help him sort out his tag.
Yesterday, in the RM vs RHA event we invited an independent RM to join us.
An Outcast destroyer showed up in Rheinland earlier this week stating that it had defected from the Outcast's forces and would act as Rheinland Military. Figuring the guy didn't fully understand the implications of his story, in character I convinced him to try something else.
Two [RM] players have requested (upon their joining the faction) that they be allowed to fly capitals. One of them had a better than great story to get the ship to fly. Both of them were denied on the grounds that it would be unfair and a double standard towards the rest of the community.
Yesterday we had six [RM] characters together in the afternoon (my afternoon), there was an independent grouped with us (the same that later participated in the event with us). At a given point I've noticed the indie guy was in Sigma-13. I told him that Sigma-13 isn't part of Rheinland space and as such is outside of our jurisdiction, so it would be better for him to return to New Berlin. I didn't "order" the guy, I didn't yell at him, I just made an important information to his character available to him. He figured out what to do by himself.
You're making assumptions and generalizations, Tenacity. Good rhetorics don't make good points.
Quote:Anyways, I still hold my same-as-always stance on this. Official factions, whether they consider themselves the "whole" military or navy or whatever they represent or not - want to run things. That's all it comes down to - they want their rules to be the official rules, they want their ranking system to apply to everyone, they want to be the ones deciding who uses what and who does what while flying under the same affiliation.
That all boils down to limiting the ability of independents to enjoy the game in the way that they want to. It's factions trying to control the 'lesser' players, when they have no right to.
It is true that power trips coming from faction representatives aren't unprecedented in Discovery. However, a lot of faction players dedicate time to cooperate in creating stories that have a significant enough scope to alter server dynamics (wars, truces, alliances etc). Something that is difficult (not impossible) to achieve alone. Also, the more people you have to criticize (in a constructive manner) something, the better chances you have to find the wholes in it.
Quote:This server is coming closer by the day to a faction-only environment. More and more groups are starting to behave like the RM and liberty lawfuls, which are tightening their restrictions on who can do what. Pretty soon, there wont be any independents left because they get tired of listening to other players who dont have the same view on RP as they do. It's a matter of conflicting perspectives.
Please, take a screenshot of the player list demonstrating your theory that there are more factions players than unaffiliated ones.
And, yes, you're right. It's a matter of conflicting perspectives. If you bother to ask yourself why some groups of players care to try and regulate such things, you could speculate, if you hadn't your conceptions set in the "same-as-always stance", that perhaps they are trying to avoid problems not only to themselves, but also to the rest of the community.
Quote:The independents dont want to be tied down by faction rules. They come here to have fun, not to do a 'job' - that isnt what this game or mod is for. If an independent wants to play a lawful character - say a rheinland military officer, or a liberty navy captain - he wants to be able to come online, do a patrol or two, interact with people, stop some smugglers or pirates - and in general have FUN. Instead, he's "oppressed" by faction members who either harass him about his ship choice, tell him he's RP'ing "wrong", or brand him some kind of outlaw even though he has never done anything to deserve that kind of treatment.
Read the above mentioned encounters and run in awe by the oppression displayed.
Quote:In the end, all I see is "join us, or dont play" from the factions, while the indies struggle against it in an effort to make their own RP, to play their character as they see fit - not as some faction tells them how to.
Yes, I'm pretty sure you'd love to enter New Berlin to see an Outcast destroyer, tagged Gateway, with an RM ID, grouped with a Civilian IDed BHBC and have them gank a pirate character of yours. Hell, they just want "to play their character as they see fit", we have no right to try and control it.
A faction can be 'the' lsf or 'the' RM or whatever if they want, but they should be open to indies also roleplaying similar things alongside them. Arrangements between factions and indies could be made, giving them a certain authority and status. Like Laowai with the corsairs, or Xing in Liberty.
Everything is flexible when its fiction we're dealing with.
Stop whining. If you feel you are oppressed by the factions, do something about it. Get others who feel the same way and band together. Form a militia and FIGHT for your 'freedom'. Less forum complaining and more action on the server.
People may say that civil war is bad but this community seems torn already, something needs to happen.
Look at the USA and the UK. The English 'oppressed' the states (I agree somewhat with that) and the civil war occured, resulting in a big loss for the English. Yet now the two nations are fighting side by side in multiple wars.
Conflict does not always lead to more conflict but instead can put things to rest before they get out of hand.
So to reiterate:
1) Stop complaining.
2) Take things into your own hands.
And of course:
3) Respect others RP and at least be polite if you disagree.
A question. Would this co-operation have happened before all this debating on the forum?
' Wrote:Everything is flexible when its fiction we're dealing with.
:lol:Noted.
' Wrote:My stance on it is this:
Stop whining. If you feel you are oppressed by the factions, do something about it. Get others who feel the same way and band together. Form a militia and FIGHT for your 'freedom'. Less forum complaining and more action on the server.
People may say that civil war is bad but this community seems torn already, something needs to happen.
Look at the USA and the UK. The English 'oppressed' the states (I agree somewhat with that) and the civil war occured, resulting in a big loss for the English. Yet now the two nations are fighting side by side in multiple wars.
Conflict does not always lead to more conflict but instead can put things to rest before they get out of hand.
So to reiterate:
1) Stop complaining.
2) Take things into your own hands.
And of course:
3) Respect others RP and at least be polite if you disagree.
Go in-game and do something about us complaining on the forum.
Oh I don't mind the complaining, just could be a solution to it all. Instead of telling others about it and hoping they will change it for you, do it yourself. Once I get some account issues sorted I plan on doing just that. Currently I'm flying around in a little Heavy Fighter with 500k spending cash:rolleyes:
' Wrote:That obvious to you but not to others? Right. No point in figuring it out? The personal satisfaction in being able to see through the crap that makes up a person is one the most satisfying things in life.
No, don't start taking my things out of context here. I never said other people cant see it. What I SAID and
what I MEANT was the answers to these questions are obvious to me, but im not going to say my
stance, until after I hear from the Admins.
Talking about this to other people (in my pov,) is beating a dead horse, because no-one else has the power to
change anything. On the other hand the Admins need to be aware of both sides of the discussion, however I
personally feel that there has been LOTS of discussion on it lately (good discussion) and now it is time to decide.
Basically, the issue has gotten to the Admins attention, one way or another,
and I (all of us i suspect) am waiting to hear back from them.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
I was one of the RM in a couple of those situations- to be honest, the only thought that entered my head was "how can we make this the most fun for everyone involved". Granted, a lot of the people I ran into were so utterly clueless I felt like blasting them (Gronath and Virus can attest to that) but I'm rather glad I restrained myself. Seeing them figure out how to find their place on the server gave me a better feeling than any pvp could have. It's why I have an Angel. On the server as in RL (note: not an expansion to FL) I get my kicks from helping people and making others happy. Every once and awhile someone will be so committed to ruining that they have to get stepped on for the sake of everyone else, but I usually feel really bad about it when it happens.
While I can't speak completely for anyone else, I've seen at the very least traces of this from everyone I've ever gotten to know. There are no really evil people here, there's just a bunch of us people who want to have fun. When we work together and forget our differences of opinion, there's nothing worth complaining about.
To those of you who say there are truly wicked people, I've got two shining examples within the past week or two. About a month or so ago, virtually all of you would probably agree that DeiSol was one of the worst people to blight the server- yet now, after deciding to try again and receiving kindness from those he said he'd thought would never help him again, he's back on track and a pleasure to interact with on the server, even if there are a few kinds to work out. For my second example, check the sanction threads for "TonyKatze" and then click here.
There are storms of other ones around. There is a lot of good and warmth on the server- whether you find it in your experiences is up to you.
' Wrote:Oh I don't mind the complaining, just could be a solution to it all. Instead of telling others about it and hoping they will change it for you, do it yourself. Once I get some account issues sorted I plan on doing just that. Currently I'm flying around in a little Heavy Fighter with 500k spending cash:rolleyes:
Yes. It has been suggested. But due to sanction reports it has been calculated that the forum is more effective. I am not implying that sanction reports or Admins are biased in any way with this post. *Glances at sig.*
' Wrote:No, don't start taking my things out of context here. I never said other people cant see it. What I SAID and
what I MEANT was the answers to these questions are obvious to me, but im not going to say my
stance, until after I hear from the Admins.
Please describe how what you said was taken out of context or retract.
' Wrote:@Nooblet's question to Gronath-
I was one of the RM in a couple of those situations- to be honest, the only thought that entered my head was "how can we make this the most fun for everyone involved". Granted, a lot of the people I ran into were so utterly clueless I felt like blasting them (Gronath and Virus can attest to that) but I'm rather glad I restrained myself. Seeing them figure out how to find their place on the server gave me a better feeling than any pvp could have. It's why I have an Angel. On the server as in RL (note: not an expansion to FL) I get my kicks from helping people and making others happy. Every once and awhile someone will be so committed to ruining that they have to get stepped on for the sake of everyone else, but I usually feel really bad about it when it happens.
While I can't speak completely for anyone else, I've seen at the very least traces of this from everyone I've ever gotten to know. There are no really evil people here, there's just a bunch of us people who want to have fun. When we work together and forget our differences of opinion, there's nothing worth complaining about.
To those of you who say there are truly wicked people, I've got two shining examples within the past week or two. About a month or so ago, virtually all of you would probably agree that DeiSol was one of the worst people to blight the server- yet now, after deciding to try again and receiving kindness from those he said he'd thought would never help him again, he's back on track and a pleasure to interact with on the server, even if there are a few kinds to work out. For my second example, check the sanction threads for "TonyKatze" and then click here.
There are storms of other ones around. There is a lot of good and warmth on the server- whether you find it in your experiences is up to you.
Very nice. Now, let us answer the question with a simple yes or no. Before people started complaining/flaming/whinging/etc on the forum did you seek to incorporate Independents as much as you do now?
' Wrote:A question. Would this co-operation have happened before all this debating on the forum?
...
This is a difficult question to answer, n00bl3t. If you mean this thread, yes, this co-operation have happened before this thread. The independents vs. factions debate, though, has been happening on the forums ever since I've joined the server.
There has been a specific time, yes, when the RM have retracted a great deal in its stance of co-operation with independents. It's safe to say that this has happened during the last big "explosion" in the server population (more specifically when Microsoft's global server died) and when Disco slots were increased. There has been a big influx in the server population and this was a time when we had some big problems regarding, not independents, but more specifically rogues.
It's safe to say that wave has somewhat passed and that's why the RM specifically (I can't talk about other factions) has been less resistant to independents over the past few months. This is something that has been happening gradually. What I can tell you is that we are working to be even less restrictive in the near future.
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