Should independents have it harder?

[Quorg]

What Marcus said.

Also, it's a bit frustrating to hear people assume that independent characters cannot have decent RP. I assure you, they certainly can.

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ATTENTION SMUGGLERS
The Midnight Express: A Slaver <strike>who doesn't completely realize what he's doing.</strike> (video)

Quorg, you're officially a moron.

...mongs like Quorg being like a malignant little cancer...

Way to be useless, Quorg.

[Sprolf]

What Marcus said.

Also, it's a bit frustrating to hear people assume that independent characters cannot have decent RP. I assure you, they certainly can.

My better RP moments have been on my indie characters.
Which is saying something.

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[Angelfire]

Also, it's a bit frustrating to hear people assume that independent characters cannot have decent RP. I assure you, they certainly can.

No Way.. I have seen Indies with EXCELLENT role play, this is not a stab at Indies at all.

It's the powertraders with no regard for role play that might be an issue.

0.02c

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The Chronicles of Angelfire

[n1kodemus]

I must admit that I was not aware that Indies were nerfed, my apologies to all in that regard.

It has been like that since 4.85 came out.

Yes, this is 'Freelancer', but it is 'Freelancer RP24/7'.

But not Freelancer Realism 24/7.

[Blodo]

Overcomplication is bad. It looks like this thread is coming down to the inevitable "how to herd indie traders towards corporations". Well, you won't be able to do it by contracts and whatnot, because no matter what you do your faction won't be able to be online 24/7 and enforce it. Most people just won't care.

Just give corporations cash incentives on cargo that is their speciality, and cash deficiency on cargo that they don't ship = promoting both adopting corporate IDs and trading in RP cargo in them. While freelancer, indie trader etc. ID would simply get no bonuses or deficiencies. This of course involves FLHook coding, but yeah..

[Mickk]

Yeah, like Kusari/Bretonia smugglers...But that goes for IMG powertraders as well. And quite a number of Republicans. I guess you just can't avoid it.

Ooops. That'd be me you are talking about. The Kusari/Bretonia smugglers thing I mean. :$

Sure, I move stuff from B to K and back again, but never 'illegal' stuff, 'people' like to move around from time to time and factories in one place or another are *always* needing stuff.

I tend to move around off of the trade lanes these days, travel via them seems to be a 'bad idea' due to pirates shooting them out from under you.

But back on topic, sure some changes *could* be made, like having the commodities set so you can only buy them at that station if you are friendly with them. (I think I've already said this?)

Doing it like that would impact *everyone* and not just single out the Indy/Freelancer Traders.

Leave the ships alone, they are limited enough already.

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Mickk: One orginal, 4 clones. Telp..teleh....mind comu...comi..come...talking ability.
A possibly very ordinary signature coming soon.
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[Suwannee River]

An "I stole it" story is considered unreasonable and metagaming.

If it is unreasonable to use an "I stole it" story for your own benefit, then it is also unreasonable to force an "I stole it" story onto someone else for your benefit or their harm.

And that is exactly what this "exclusive contract" scenario does : it forces an "I stole it" story onto someone else in order to allow you to attack them. It takes a trader who did absolutely nothing wrong and paid his own hard earned credits to purchase a cargo load of a commodity, and accuses the trader of having "stolen" it. Metagaming to harm someone else is just as wrong as metagaming to benefit yourself.

This accusation is paradoxical to begin with. If you-in-space know it's stolen, then the umpteen guys on the base who loaded the cargo would have known the same thing; stolen cargo right out of a production location is absurd because nobody can dock and get the cargo loaded without the proper paperwork/contract/etc. To think that mere possession indicates theft creates a paradox : the people on the base are just as likely to know this as some pilot in space is, in fact the people on the base are MORE likely to know than some random pilot in space is. And if the people who are responsible for guarding and loading the commodity on the base can't spot a thief, then it is completely absurd to think that some know-nothing pilot flying around can spot a thief based on EXACTLY the same evidence that already convinced the base employees that he was not a thief : mere possession of the cargo. Forged documents and fake identities are irrelevant as excuses to spot a thief, because the only actual evidence being used in this scenario is the combination of ID and cargo. If a pilot can spot a thief that way, then so can the base, and if the base cannot (which it does not) then neither can a random pilot. And it's just metagaming to claim otherwise.

[blubba]

I'm an independant Junker. I have been since I joined here. I get hunted by bucket loads of people because of my cargo, my location or because of my ID.
I'm not blowing my own trumpet here. I don't need to power trade but I do have a large cargo hold on my ship and I make good money. I trade to support my factions and all my ships involved in them. I like the independance that I have and would not change it for a few % of creds.
Thats enough about me.

Now, I don't always agree with Blodo here but I'm going to stand up and clap him.
*Stands up and claps*
A sort of mining bonus for traders. Now that I do agree with.

I appreciate Ivans argument regarding independants against factionalized ships but I honestly think if you reduced profits across the board (trade is quite hard now) and kept factionalized traders profits as is on faction related commodities, you WOULD push certain types of players into factionalized groups, but mainly the people not so interested in RP and more in cash. The indies would still be around but there'd be less of them. This would also create more opportunity for RP with the various pirate/police factions as well as others in their trade arm.
It won't spoil others game because nothing will be illegal, just less profitable. The product won't have the same garantees etc, lower quality, not installed by our engineers blah blah blah.

Frankly, i think this is a GOOD idea. So good for Ivan for saying it and good for Blodo for sayng how to do it.

How about 15% reduction on anything thats not your faction ID?
On a $20 million per hour trade run, thats a reduction to $17 million. Not a lot really, but enough.

PS Oh boy am I toast for suggesting a number....

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[Exsiled_one]

Sorry guys, but since I can't code and dont have a admin / developer chair I do with what I have.
I realize now things are unfair to some, but it is the best offer I have.
Currently I believe that actual contracts and convoys between corporation traders are a good roleplay, so I will keep that roleplay active, as we did sign the contract with ageira, and it will cost us 110 millions in the proces.
it is not about 110millions it is about furthering that kind of rp.

and since it's perfectly legal (and most of you agree to it) for corporations to actually contract their unique commodities i will promote this too.
but i will ofcourse stop thinking about ideas to herd indy traders to the corporations, i will go back to trying to make corporations more appealing towards indie traders and give them mind of their own.

While I agree with Blodo, it is something not you, or me or most of us can do, it is up to admins and moderators, but that does not mean we cannot promote and further roleplay on our own, since, if you would compare admins as corporations and us as "small indies", you could also say that we are "the backbone" of this server.
as a backbone of this server, I support everyone who is willing to further roleplay in the right way and seek opinions from others on the forum. If you're either against this idea or for it, you must admitt that this topic did give you a chance to express yourself.

So to sum it up, it is usefull to provoke the mind every now and then with such questions and hope admins will pick up and develop from there as well

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<span style="color:#33CC00">I AM GIVING AWAY MONEY TO CREATIVE MINDS*</span>

[Xoria]

I'd like somebody to explain how only an extremely limited number of people being allowed to trade a commodity improves the roleplay situation for pirate factions which depend on the trading of a commodity for a substantial portion of their roleplay. How does it benefit LWB and the Farmer's Alliance if Synth Paste is barely traded? How does it benefit the Lane Hackers if Gate Lane Parts are barely traded? How does it benefit Gaians if Gaian Wildlife is barely traded? How would it benefit the Red Hessians if trade with Daumann stations was limited to Daumann ID's (keeping out Independent Trader IDs)?

The fact is that nobody benefits from restricting trade by restricting access to commodities. Traders don't benefit from it. Pirates who prey on trade don't benefit from it. Police and military who have fewer traders to escort or protect don't benefit from it. Even the people doing the restricting don't benefit from it. There is no practical or tangible benefit to anyone when trade is restricted.

But you know what? There is a lot of harm done by restricting trade. Just ask the Alster Union how much fun it's been to pirate in Bering and Hudson over the past 6 months while the LN and RM were doing everything they could to stop any traders from going into those systems. Creating a "dead zone" of no activity in a system or in the trading of a commodity benefits nobody, but it does harm to the other people who depend on a "live zone" for the their roleplay-reasons-to-exist.

I certainly support corporate trading, but doing anything to harm non-corporate trading along the same routes or in the same commodities is the wrong way to go about it. Doing harm to people only creates resentment and hostility, and an absence of the very thing you want to encourage. Why would anyone want to join an Ageira faction or use an Ageira ID when they've just gotten blown up as a result of Ageira's bounty against transporting Gate Lane Parts? That is completely contrary to human nature. You cannot coerce people into joining your version of fun. The only effective thing you can do to attract people is to make your way more fun by adding positives to the situation. Adding negatives to the other guy's situation just makes them upset and LESS likely to join you.

Traders have enough problems from pirates robbing them and lawfuls demanding licenses and taxes out the yin yang (over a dozen licenses in Bretonia alone, not counting contraband) without corporations hiring mercenaries to blow them up because they are transporting something that some corporate faction has territorial issues over. If that is going to be the case, then my solution is very simple : I'll make sure that those commodities are not profitable enough to transport to attract interest from people who don't have a dedicated interest in transporting it. So you get a simple tradeoff here. Restrict trade in "your" commodity for everyone else, and you can rely on your faction dedication to motivate you to trade in that commodity, because it will be stripped of the financial motivation for trading in it so that no one else is tempted to get themselves into a situation where your hired goons can harass them for doing so. I noticed someone wondering if plutonium could get improved profits by enforcing a Kishiro/GMG contract for it's transport. I just laughed.

I don't know why the constant tendency around here is to try to solve every perceived problem or improve every situation by clamping down more negatives on everybody else instead of making the "preferred" activity actually preferable through positive improvements. I suppose it's just easier to harm everybody else and make the "preferred" option look better by comparison, but that is simplistic and an ultimately counterproductive mindset due to the hostility and contempt created in the people who are being nerfed. If you want people to join your corporate faction then make it more fun for them to join, but don't try to impose harms on them for not joining.

Trading needs more support primarily by getting all of these oppressive goons off of traders' backs, not by adding even more restrictions to make their life more difficult.

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