the Zoners

[Kuraine]

The thing is, people bitching about the Zoners having some kind of "military presence" forgets that while they might have the equivalent fleet of a house, it isn't all under one banner and it is dispersed across many freeports. Granted, the bulk of it will be at Gran Canaria, but nevertheless it exists. The way I see it, each Freeport is autonomous and runs itself, but obviously each Freeport would need to have a designated "leader".

If each Freeport encounters trouble that it cannot handle by itself, it would then request an assembly of all Freeport leaders on Gran Canaria (this is just how i'd see it overall), and they'd discuss how to handle the issue between themselves, since it may affect all Zoners. The Zoner Council as Mal created originally, pretty much works in this fashion. Otherwise, all Freeports stand and work alone for the most part. If an organisation declared war on a Freeport though, it would be reasonable to assume that all other Freeports would assist, because it could threaten them in the future if they did nothing. Just how I see it, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I largely agree with what Richter said.

Also, I don't really get where people are thinking that the Golden Chrysanthemums are a military power. They're about on a par with the Blood Dragons, only they have considerably more funding from selling cardamine, which I don't think is unreasonable to consider. They also don't really use anything above the level of fighters/bombers (I think at present the official [GC] group owns a single gunboat, which isn't even active). Anyway, I won't go into that further here, but since others had kept mentioning it I thought i'd make a mention of it.

Perhaps you should all, as others have said, just wait and see what 4.85 brings (although I still think it should be called version 5 XD). All groups are evolving from their original ideas, such is the passage of time. To be honest, I would say no pirate groups should have anything bigger than a gunboat, and most pirate groups shouldn't even have access to even gunboats. On the same token, if we were to do that, Zoners shouldn't get any battleships or cruisers or gunboats, although I would make a couple of Zoner Juggernauts dockable bases and stick them outside Gran Canaria and other key Zoner locations maybe. Junkers shouldn't have battleships. They shouldn't even have cruisers. But how boring would it be, if nothing ever changed at all.

But times change. People get richer and more powerful. More space gets opened up for exploration and exploitation. The tech levels and manufacturing capabilities of groups increase. Just the way it goes.

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Kuraine (Zoner tagged Trader)
Ravenholm (Zoner tagged Zoner Destroyer)
Bill Mason[Arms.Dealer] (Zoner tagged Arms Dealer)
LR-Drax (Liberty Rogue tagged Cruiser)
LR-Dravis (Liberty Rogue tagged VHF)
[RHA]Wilhelm.Wettin (Red Hessian tagged VHF)
[GC]-Ai.Takeda (Golden Chrysanthemum tagged VHF/Bomber)

[me_b_kevin]

But times change. People get richer and more powerful. More space gets opened up for exploration and exploitation. The tech levels and manufacturing capabilities of groups increase. Just the way it goes.

i wonder if the opposite would be true as well. while there is some evolution to the technology and such in Discovery, it can't all be sunshine and lolly pops. not every faction is going to be gradually increasing in power. i dare to say that any number of unexpected happenings (good and bad) could occur, leading to some factions jumping far ahead, some staying the same, and some actually getting worse.

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Mon'Star the Red- Rated "R" : http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3224
Aboard the Necrosis- Rated "E": http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3313

[Unseelie]

Moreover, if the Zoners are getting richer, it follows that so are the House corporations, the Houses themselves, and the Pirates.

I don't think the Zoner's getting richer in comparison to their previous state would change their nominal status. I'll even go so far as to argue that it could make them nominally poorer.

The zoners are 77 years old. Houses are older, bigger, richer, and should be able to out produce, and out grow, the zoners in most every possible way. They shouldn't -get- house level militaries, unless the house's military gets wtf pwned. The Zoners, as a peaceful nation, can probably support the size of a military force that Bretonia and Kusari employ, and lose, over and over throughout the war. Every month, a house should be able to produce more than the total zoner military, and you should be able to substitute any other group, excluding the hispanics and the GMG, possibly, for the Zoners. Its not wether they should have cap ships, its whether they can compete with the House production of such.

In short, Houses should out-compete everything, and by miles.


Note: I'm not biased against zoners. I like zoners. Or, I like zoners the way they are/were.

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[Kuraine]

Well that is certainly the case, Zoner manufacturing capabilities are going to be slower and fewer than most House manufacturing capabilities. However, Houses do have to rely on a military budget as well, and Zoners have lots of cash (although yes, not as much as a House's income). Zoners also would not possibly be able to replenish any losses anywhere near as fast as a House, but since nobody really fights them, this isn't really a problem, and they can continue slowly building up what military forces they possess. Their military would not be concentrated like a House military, and likely wouldn't be nearly as well trained, though I daresay they're better trained than many pirate organisations.

Each Freeport would have its own defence forces under the control of that Freeport. It might only be a dozen fighters wings, it might even include a few destroyers. Occasionally a Freeport (like Freeport 9) might even have a Juggernaut. Put all together in one place, it might potentially rival Bretonia or Rheinland's navy. But its all over the place, and could easily be taken down single handedly by most organisations if they concentrated a reasonable amount of firepower at any given Freeport.

The only "Freeport" that would be able to put up a very serious fight would be Gran Canaria, at which there would be located a fairly large Zoner fleet. But they don't really work together, they only look out for each Freeport by itself, unless some organisation declared war on the Zoners at large in which case they'd probably all start banding together and fighting back to protect themselves, and using their economic strengths to choke the opposing faction (if its a pirate group they would simply cut off all supplies to them). Otherwise, each Freeport is in a sense a single entity. But if you took the Zoner movement/nation as a whole and put it in one place and forced them to all work together, it would rival the power of a House. But they don't, because they're Zoners and they look out for their own Freeport only, unless there is a threat that directly threatens ALL Zoners regardless of where they come from (Wild, Harvesters, Nomads, Phantoms).

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Kuraine (Zoner tagged Trader)
Ravenholm (Zoner tagged Zoner Destroyer)
Bill Mason[Arms.Dealer] (Zoner tagged Arms Dealer)
LR-Drax (Liberty Rogue tagged Cruiser)
LR-Dravis (Liberty Rogue tagged VHF)
[RHA]Wilhelm.Wettin (Red Hessian tagged VHF)
[GC]-Ai.Takeda (Golden Chrysanthemum tagged VHF/Bomber)

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

I seriously doubt the zoners have them millitary forces of a house.

The only "outsider" or "Pirates" that do is the two subdivisions of Hispania (Outcasts, Corsairs)
And i dont know about outcasts, but from the corsair capital spam im pretty sure they might.

[Rudo]

two of the main contenders from vanilla (junkers and zoners) have been turned into military organizations with a full fleet of capships and armies ready to dominate the populace of Sirius.

You may be pleased by the direction I'm trying to take the Congress in. Trying to steer us away from the whole fleet mentality.

No long-term profit in conquest, and a war fleet is an unforgivable waste of resources when you can simply steer the enemies of your enemies to where they'll take care of the problem themselves.

Also, we're all over the place. We can fade from anywhere and pop up anywhere else, starting up another racket and another quick score.



We do maintain the odd craft for defense, but these are largely experimental homeguard platforms and by and large shouldn't be seen all the time.

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[bluntpencil2001]

If the Zoners were capable of defending Gran Canaria with a large fleet, they wouldn't rely on Corsairs.

I'm of the opinion, however, that the Corsairs aren't a deterrent, but yet another reason to attack. If they were wise, they would boot the Corsairs out, like they did with the Unioners on Freeport 2. However, it seems to be too late.

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[Doc Holliday]

If the Zoners were capable of defending Gran Canaria with a large fleet, they wouldn't rely on Corsairs.

I'm of the opinion, however, that the Corsairs aren't a deterrent, but yet another reason to attack. If they were wise, they would boot the Corsairs out, like they did with the Unioners on Freeport 2. However, it seems to be too late.

Actually, Zoners allow Unioners to land on FP2 for re-supply but what the Zoners don't tolerate is their criminal activities which they have been told to take elsewhere. The same applies to any criminal group at a FP. Land, have a drink, refuel and mingle but take the ill intentions elsewhere.

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[MFE]Med Force One | Tales of Recovery|Med Force Enterprises

[bluntpencil2001]

Actually, Zoners allow Unioners to land on FP2 for re-supply but what the Zoners don't tolerate is their criminal activities which they have been told to take elsewhere. The same applies to any criminal group at a FP. Land, have a drink, refuel and mingle but take the ill intentions elsewhere.

Yes, I know that.

They aren't allowed to base there, though, as it was going to encourage a Rheinland attack, which Liberty would have to condone.

The same should go for Corsairs basing on Gran Canaria, which happens on a much greater scale than Unioners on Freeport 2.

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[Rudo]

The thing is, people bitching about the Zoners having some kind of "military presence" forgets that while they might have the equivalent fleet of a house, it isn't all under one banner and it is dispersed across many freeports. Granted, the bulk of it will be at Gran Canaria, but nevertheless it exists. The way I see it, each Freeport is autonomous and runs itself, but obviously each Freeport would need to have a designated "leader".

If each Freeport encounters trouble that it cannot handle by itself, it would then request an assembly of all Freeport leaders on Gran Canaria (this is just how i'd see it overall), and they'd discuss how to handle the issue between themselves, since it may affect all Zoners. The Zoner Council as Mal created originally, pretty much works in this fashion. Otherwise, all Freeports stand and work alone for the most part. If an organisation declared war on a Freeport though, it would be reasonable to assume that all other Freeports would assist, because it could threaten them in the future if they did nothing. Just how I see it, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I largely agree with what Richter said.

Also, I don't really get where people are thinking that the Golden Chrysanthemums are a military power. They're about on a par with the Blood Dragons, only they have considerably more funding from selling cardamine, which I don't think is unreasonable to consider. They also don't really use anything above the level of fighters/bombers (I think at present the official [GC] group owns a single gunboat, which isn't even active). Anyway, I won't go into that further here, but since others had kept mentioning it I thought i'd make a mention of it.

Perhaps you should all, as others have said, just wait and see what 4.85 brings (although I still think it should be called version 5 XD). All groups are evolving from their original ideas, such is the passage of time. To be honest, I would say no pirate groups should have anything bigger than a gunboat, and most pirate groups shouldn't even have access to even gunboats. On the same token, if we were to do that, Zoners shouldn't get any battleships or cruisers or gunboats, although I would make a couple of Zoner Juggernauts dockable bases and stick them outside Gran Canaria and other key Zoner locations maybe. Junkers shouldn't have battleships. They shouldn't even have cruisers. But how boring would it be, if nothing ever changed at all.

But times change. People get richer and more powerful. More space gets opened up for exploration and exploitation. The tech levels and manufacturing capabilities of groups increase. Just the way it goes.

The [GC] gunboat is indeed active, or at least was logged in tonight. I saw'rd the Lady wif my own eyes!

While I'm somewhat for the expansion of fleet assets, I'm in full agreement that factions that don't prioritize direct conflict shouldn't really get access to a lot of the bigger ships. I say this as the chap officially spearheading the Junker Congress. That said, people lobbied for caps and had decent roleplay. They got them because of this. Thing is, we rarely use them now that we have them. And in my humble opinion, they never get used for the right reasons.

But that's me, I'm solidly anti-cap as a rule.

I can't wait to push every Junker who wants a cap towards a salvage frigate come 4.85. Now THAT'S an artillery ship fit for a Junker.

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