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Ya know, this is really gettnig amusing.
You guys completely missed the point. That council weither it lives or not (Which by the way may get disbanded, and it won't be because of this community's constant whining) is highly debatable.
And For the last frakkin' time, It only affects those that wish to work with it. If you're not wanting to work with it, then kindly STFU and leave the topic alone. It doesn't affect you, nor doe sit deal with you, so why are you nitpicking a topic that no longer has anything to do with you?
*THAT* is the exact arguement that makes no bloody sense. It no longer applies to all independents, just those that want to work with the council.
I don't really care if you respect me or not. I never had respect for the community following those character assassination attacks i saw in flood (which is extremely low and grade-school like). I don't want anyone's respect. My job is done. The admins are discussing the solutions available. If you guys want to continue flaming me over a topic that hardly involves you, Then that is your problem, no longer mine. *********
(I would -REALLY- like to see the examples of flaming you are seeing. I am seeing flaming from one side alone. Well, before my recent posts anyway. I might be crossing a line with the next part, but I really want reasoned discussion and not what I have been seeing. As such, I am quoting and adressing YOUR flaming.)
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We're trying something new. No one likes it, and yu still want to pick a bone with us? Go find a new bone to pick, really. *********
(How is this different than some cap whore saying "I'm the God-Emperor of N000b ownage. If you don't like it, Ignore me! If you cannot stand critique, why present it in a public place at all?)
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Oh, FFS people..
WE RESOLVED THIS ALREADY.. Why are we still arguing this? Good god in heaven... *********
(It hasn't been resolved for all people at this point. For example, the issue I have had with the beginning still isn't resolved. It seems to me this is an attempt to marginalize those of us who still felt there was more discussion about this needed. Addressing our concerns would have been a better action at this point I think.)
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Okay okay okay. So i'm the idiot for thinking you guys actually read my edited posts.
Go back to the first post, and re-read it as I FIXED THE BLOODY PROBLEM! *********
(Implications that "we" are the idiots, for not doing the simple thing of reading your posts. Wouldn't a statement of "Have you read my posts" been better here? I certainly don't think the bloody caps worked in your favor.)
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For frak's sake... This is getting beyond stupid.. it only would apply to those who choose to deal withus. *********
(How are we not dealing with you? We are attempting to give you feedback, and you accuse us of perpetuating actions that aren't intelligent.)
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Since you guys feel the need to publically frak me in every way possible (Yes, i have seen the flood thread, and I'm not even remotely amused.. in fact i didn't think you people could devel into grade-school bullcrap) then be my guest. Flaming me isn't gonna get rid of me this time. Only admins banning me or them asking me to leave will do it. *********
(To be fair to you, I -HAVE NOT- seen the flood thread. How about now being fair to me and the others like me and recognize that I am here providing my feedback independent of any flaming? And for the record, I haven't heard of anyone with the intent of getting rid of you. Is there some kind of history going on here that I should know about? Does it affect this discussion?)
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... before we continue this stupidly pointless debate ??? *********
(I didn't get in on this until after your edits. I have since Re-read the areas I have had problems with. Those still have not changed. Is my concerns still pointless even though they haven't been answered to my satisfaction? If so, I apologize, but I can't leave it alone.)
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but it won't curb the stupidity. *********
(A Valid statement, but was "stupidity" the only choice of words?)
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I'll deal with the cap ship crap when I've actually had a chance to step back and away from the flames i have received in the last week. *********
(Who is Flaming? I see this as a flame because you are implying everyone against you is flaming you)
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and it won't be because of this community's constant whining *********
(Are we really whining?)
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And deffinitely not with the ammount of bullcrap I'm seeing. *********
(Very little of the responses here seems like bullcrap to me)
I might be biased, but it seems to me that the flaming going on are the kinds that are used by someone who will not tolerate opinions other than their own. It is coming from one person, and I have quoted that person. If I am wrong, Please present the evidence to the contrary. I'd appreciate it if every time you are accusing someone of flaming to show us all what you considered flaming.
Thank you!
I am now ripping apart one of your posts in detail, so as to better understand your intent. For better replying, I have numbered my concerns that this post has raised.
' Wrote:Look i'm not against ideas. I'm all open to ideas, but not when people are going to go out of their way and nitpick a solution that no longer applies to them.
Concern 1) I would like to know if you reject my opinion of "A faction organized body that independents are in will attempt to impose it's will sooner or later on others."
' Wrote:if they want to be involved in the council, then sure. I'm willing to listen to *EVERYONE* regardless of how they respect me or if I respect them. I'm not here to push Bs| agenda.. I never was. I ahave always put the role play of the mod ifrst and foremost. Bs| is a secondary issue which I will deal with privately (and no, it won't be public on the forum in any way, shape or form).
Concern 2) The Bs| is relativly respected on the server, at least by me, do you realize that your intent to impose any kind of hostile actions or attempt to impose your absentee (for most of us) rule against them, privately or not, earns you Ill will from at least me, and possibly others?
Concern 3) My own statements, as well as others, are Pro-Council if certain changes are made. Are you rejecting any changes of such a nature, even though it will reduce the amount of players who will willingly participate in this new creation of yours?
' Wrote:One catch with "Democratic" election systems is it never works in Discovery. It's been tried, repeatedly, and it's failed. The only time it's worked is with the admins. Democratically selected council members can easily drop into absolute anarchy. So others want an even number of Bs| and Independents on the council. Sure. I have no issues with that. DOn't want me in command of Bs| TFB. I ain't going anywhere. Don't want me on the council? Besides Swiss and Ascendency I'm the only one with any real command powers over Bs| that can serve the council.
Concern 4) Is this a statement that you will not be imposing a dictatorship over the council? This statement seems to be a declaration that you will not back down. If it is a statement that you will remain as the head of the council, procede to Concern 4a, if not, move to Concern 5.
Concern 4a) Several people here have stated, democratically selected or not, if you will relinquish your attempt at rulership of the council they will probably back it. Why do you feel that this is an unacceptable outcome?
Concern 5) Many people who would have willingly stood with the council if it was chosen by people who better represent them were chosen won't stand with the council if they feel they have no "stake" in it. What can you provide to the community of Order players to give them a "stake" in the council if not representation?
' Wrote:I have removed Bs| general power over the order, and am willing to put it in the council, but not at this rate. not with the ammount of flame material going on. And deffinitely not with the ammount of bullcrap I'm seeing.
Concern 6) Many players feel that you have no right to give anyone general power over the community, what makes you feel that you do, in fact, have the right?
Concern 7) I am feeling that you are using "Flaming" as a way to prevent answering questions, and passing off the fact that the council only affects those who participate. Is it possible at all for you to ignore the fire, imaginary or real, and the fact it really doesn't apply to most of us, and answer our concerns in a real manner?
Concern 8) I am getting the feeling you are not reading posts of others very deeply, can you assure me you are spending as much time on our posts as you want spent on your posts?
Thank you.
-Remora
(Edit: Fixed broken quotes. Should have previewed first.)
//Merry XMAS Remora! Congrats for being a member for a whole month.
Oh your a LOA guy? Legion of Armageddon, mmmm colourful name!
Not sure what your whole point is really in the above post, seriously, you doing doing some paper on pyschoanalysis or some thing on wolfpack?
Wolfpacks motives that u seem desperate to comprehend are not really that hard to understand.
We had a few problems with at least one of our own pilots... hence the standing orders, some of which have always existed. Some changes reflect the changes in the "community" and some to help remove "grey areas" for us and certain individuals.
These changes for the most part are for the higher good of Blacksquadron, rules have been bent, ignored etc by some of our own pilots for some time... something I was trying to address for as long in our own forums.
After all we are supposed to be elite, well trained and disciplined pilots. The Order ID states we are lawful.
Our system rules etc that have been in place for a long time are not really that hard to understand or follow.
Some of the changes (that some people keep repeating) that Bs| is creating and handpicking members (for the council) to suit themselves is simply not true. I for one am in fierce opposition to the choice of Indy's.
But for the good of the Order and Blacksquadron, I would be happy to adopt this proposal (conditional) in an effort to unite us. I haven't contributed some 2 Billion + credits to the faction to see it wasted.
Some of us really care.... we have put a lot (more than a months) worth of work into this faction and don't want to see it ruined by those that have been here less than 5 minutes.
I respect your opinions and will fight for your right to express them, but really stop thinking so much and simply go back to the first post and have a good re-read... what do want to do? Choice is simple be a part of the Order or keep doing your own thing.
Satori, if 20 people were to appear on the server and the forums tommorow, claiming to be The Order and denouncing Bs| as traitors, who would be 'right'?
You cannot ask people to stop being 'The Order' simply because they do not follow Bs|, who are meant to be an elite wing of the Order, not the whole damned thing.
From tomorrow I'm going to call myself Grand Admiral of the Order fleet. Anyone who disagrees will get a strongly worded letter delivered straight to them.
Also a smart idea might be to refrain from using someone's join date as any sort of argument. Some people who are new may be far more intune with Discovery than some of the veterans. Plus sometimes appearances can be deceiving, people disapear and come back or start over with different accounts, the only people who know for certain are the admins.
1. Define right and wrong! I mean really how the hell do I know? There is no spoon!
2. Where the hell did I say that?
3. WOW there's so many Grand Admirals I don't wanna be one anymore ; )
4. Mentioned for relativity... Oh and I know I've been decieved before (really hurt my feelings!) why would anyone lie/decieve about something like that?
1. There is no right or wrong in this case, much like life. Neither group would be above one another in 'right or wrong' but Bs| would have it's legacy and it's history, though that can also be a bad thing as well, especially considering these recent turn of events.
2.
Quote:Choice is simple be a part of the Order or keep doing your own thing.
You seem to be saying that 'your own thing' is not being part of the Order. Apologies if I got the meaning wrong.
3. More the merrier:D
4. People sometimes want a fresh start to things or simply want to go away for a while and have changed since.
What I want, is for this to be acceptable to myself so that I don't have to ignore all the RP that comes out of it as if it were OoRP. Wolfpack's refusal to pick someone else to lead it, or allow the independent community self-determination in the selection of the independents upon the council, rings so many alarm bells in my head that I cannot do that right now. I can be ignored, quite easily. As you said, it shouldn't be the place for someone who has been here less than 5 minutes (I will quickly concede that point to you), but it isn't about the time I have spent, and all about the fact that myself, and others as well, are not being listened to. I have (soon to be had, and soon after that to be have again, maybe. This council thing bothers me though.) an order character. As such, what is going on here is of importance to me. I am concerned that who was chosen doesn't represent the community as it should be represented. You appear to share my same concerns. The difference between us is I am not, nor will I ever be Bs|. I don't have to listen to Wolfpack. What he says is not law to me. As such, I can question his decisions, as I am doing now.
He is NOT inspiring faith in -HIS- council to me. I do not disagree with the general orders. They seem pretty good. I do not disagree outright with his choice of the Bs| members or the size of the council that he wants established. What I disagree with is his refusal to let the independents pick their own representation, or the right of the council to select its own leadership. He fears democracy, rightly so maybe. The biggest problem with Democracies is without force, there is no discourse in good times, which allows evil times to come. The thing is though, Democracies reduce oppression. If a leader can be ejected peacefully by the will of the people, there is no reason for resistance. The person who is tolerated best leads the group. I'm not directly opposed to a dictatorship, I just believe that the dictator of the Order Council should at least start out as a moderate. So the solution is to Replace Wolfpack with someone who isn't striking up as many sparks. His resistance to the idea of being replaced by someone else causes great concern for myself, and it appears to be others as well. If the leadership of the council is so powerless, how come he won't relinquish it? Why does he keep refusing to pass it off to another, someone outside his own control? What makes his control worth people not willfully following his council? This refusal is a direct contradiction to General Order #3, and makes me wonder about his motivations. This is especially true with his broad, hostile, personal attack on all dissident from any source.
Actually, I take something back. I do have a problem with the General orders. Black Squadron should not be mentioned in council general orders. The council is not the black squadron. However, this is all schematics, and as such not really important at the current date.
Remora, I will address your concerns in private. At this point, I have no intention of continuing this thread for the time being as it would appear some of my words are either getting mis-interpreted or whatever.
And it would apear no one provides the benefit of the doubt, let alone trust to anyone here anymore.
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Time left: (Permanent)
' Wrote:And it would apear no one provides the benefit of the doubt, let alone trust to anyone here anymore.
If that is the case, which it isn't, prove that you're right. You may very well be, but saying bad things about everyone that criticises you is getting everyone nowhere fast.
After discussing with Remora in private about his own objections to the council, I've agreed to change the makeup of the council.
There will be no figurehead or leadership figure on the council. Nontheless, this council's true power is entirely up to the admins if they decide to restore any kind of power to the factions and/or Independents.
1) Council will be made up of 6 members. 3 From the Faction BlackSquadron, 3 Independents of their own choosing. Bs| reserves all 3 spots for the faction to be given to their 3 highest ranking members.
2) THe only power the council has is on voting powers as far as Role Play goes. Capital Ship Restriction is still a questionable topic, and will be left up to the admins to sort out once the rules are made far more clear.
3) in the event of a tie in the council, the question will be sent to the Admins of the server for their purview.
This should satisfy all parties.
User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)
' Wrote:...
There will be no figurehead or leadership figure on the council. Nontheless, this council's true power is entirely up to the admins if they decide to restore any kind of power to the factions and/or Independents.
1) Council will be made up of 6 members. 3 From the Faction BlackSquadron, 3 Independents of their own choosing. Bs| reserves all 3 spots for the faction to be given to their 3 highest ranking members.
...
This removes my objection. My order character will abide by the council.
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