Really.
Thats impossible to even think about hitting.
Solaris's fail so bad they dont do enough damage when they DO hit.
and i had never talked about 4.82, I am only advertising it in my sig because it will be 10X better than 4.85 probably unless they fix these fail weapons. Again, with the escorts, If you need an escort for defending yourself from everyday attacks from NPC/player fighter wings, then just remove all the caps and it will be a bomber/fighter only mod.
Quote:By the way, capital ships like the Carrier and Juggernaut are RP platforms, if anything else. The Juggernaut is used for defense of Zoner bases and the Carrier is centered around fighters.
So, the carrier is centered around fighters?
I ask once again, where are these swarms of fighters I'm supposed to be able to launch? What's that, game mechanics? Oh noes, game mechanics are preventing a ship from fulfilling it's purpose!
Please, take off the blindfold. This has been pointed out dozens upon dozens of times, carriers do not have the actual ability to launch or hold fighters, and because of that mechanical restriction they -must- be balanced as if they werent carriers at all. The liberty carrier is balanced like a dreadnaught, the order carrier is balanced like a battlecruiser (though, once again, it's twice the size of all other battlecruisers, and before beta 3 was out it had less armor than all of the others, and it also does not have any battleship turrets like all of the other BC's have).
Now, if the devs could figure out how to make carriers launch NPC fighters and bombers to attack the enemy, THEN it might be ok to have them slightly weaker than other caps, because those NPCs they launch would take up the slack. However, until that feature is added (which will likely never happen), you cannot base balance of a ship around something it cannot do, no matter if it's intended to be able to do that or not.
Quote:You don't like the lack of escorts, recruit people or join another faction.
And now you're telling me that I just spent 600 million credits on a ship that isnt doing what it's supposed to and the only solution is to JOIN A DIFFERENT FACTION?
Please, shovel over the credits if you feel that way, apparently you're richer than I.
EDIT:
All I ask is for some point defense capability that actually convicnes bombers and fighters to stay at range, so I have some chance of avoiding their supernovas and nova torps.
I have spoken to jinx quite a bit about this in the past few days, and really the ultimate problem right now is that the carrier, and battlecruisers in general, do not have their own weapon or shield class. For their intended purposes, they have underpowered shields and weaponry, it's a cross between a cruiser and a battleship with none of the advantages of either group.
The biggest issue with the carrier is... it's big. It is too large for solaris turrets to be effective - if I put a solaris turret at the rear of my ship, it cant fire to the front of my ship, due to ship length. If I put them at the front, same deal, cant fire to the rear. If I put them in the middle of the ship, the effective range of the turret when firing forward or backward is only about 300-400 meters, tops.
Problem is, if we buff solaris turrets for battlecruisers (carrier in particular, the other BC's are half it's size), then they become overpowered for small cruisers. That's where the issue with not having battlecruiser-specific weaponry comes in, you either underpower battlecruisers or overpower cruisers by trying to balance for one or the other, you cant find a crossroads that makes them both effective.
There's no easy solution in my particular case right now, unfortunately - but I do feel that, even on some smaller cruisers, point defense weapons are not doing their jobs.
Basically, if a BIG ship turns up, I know it will be nigh impossible to bring down unless there is a sustained organised attack force. However it also means that lolwutting nubs that think that a big ship should be the world and more can't ruin my day with flismsy abuse of the power of their expensive hulk. They may have to learn to actually aim!
You can't have everything - where would you put it?
Some of the missions are tough, though - I'll grant you that. As in - ridiculously hard.
If 2-3 bombers = 3 PEOPLE, can't kill ONE battleship = ONE player, why wouldn't anyone fly BS? I mean it gives one player the same "weight" as 3 players. Bomber is the primary anti-capital ship.
In 4.84 3 bombers killed a BS even if it was escorted by 2 VHFs.
in 4.85 they don't => BS works as a "force multiplier" as it should.
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@ Tenacity, as I told you numerous times now, Order Carrier can not be flown alone, it simply can't. I was getting the impression that Order build some 1-2 that are used only as combat support. You want it to be a "mini-battleship" and try to change all cruiser guns according to that, which won't really happen. It got armor increase to survive longer in the support role, it can get some similar means for the same purpose (surviving and/or running). But no it won't be getting any more deadly.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
We are not asking for capship turrets that own everything in sight. All we ask for is capital ship turrets that are effective in the job they do, currently they are not.
Defense against everyday stupid annoying insignifficant NPC wing
Bomber Repellant.
' Wrote:Battleship and cruiser missiles have had their roles changed. They are anti cap, much like big rockets flying to blow apart the parts of another capital ship. They aren't anti-fighter anymore, razors, solaris and flak are for that task.
yea...but they cant even done a better job than my Order MK2 (anti-cap gun)
' Wrote:Have people even read Mjolnir's post explaining the purpose and suggested use of each weapon?
"I have 2 battle razors and they drain my powerplant"
What the hell do you have 2 for? 1 battle razor instakills any bomber, you only need 1. It works awesomely.
but when you have it on a big ship..its 1.5K range decrease to somewhere like 1K.(1.2~1.3K with Osiris).flaks decrease to somewhere about 200m..same for Solaris.(even on my Osiris it tells me in range when enemy ship is 600m away from me with flaks/solaris)..and enemy ship is always stay 1K plus from your Battleship...and you cant aim at enemy fighter over 1K..the turret is wasted
Quote:@ Tenacity, as I told you numerous times now, Order Carrier can not be flown alone, it simply can't. I was getting the impression that Order build some 1-2 that are used only as combat support. You want it to be a "mini-battleship" and try to change all cruiser guns according to that, which won't really happen. It got armor increase to survive longer in the support role, it can get some similar means for the same purpose (surviving and/or running). But no it won't be getting any more deadly.
Better point defense = better survivability.
I've done a lot of pvp practice in the past few days with other order pilots of varying ship types. Here's the results:
-I cannot kill fighters. They cant kill me either unless it's a swarm of a half dozen fighters all with shieldbusters and razors, but that's how it should be, fighters are not designed for going against caps. The biggest issue I have with fighters right now is ramming, because despite the so called 'fix' for capship spinning, we still spin when bumped by anything smaller.
-I cannot kill bombers. Solaris turrets or not, I might be able to down a single bomber if he isnt good at dodging, and it does take a rather long time for a single bomber to kill me, but two or more bombers would completely wreck that ship and it's helpless defending against them. As said before, solaris turets dont have enough range to keep the bombers at a distance where the carrier can dodge supernovas, it's simply too big and lacks manuverability here.
For comparison, the carrier is roughly 30% LARGER than an osiris, with less shielding, less armor, and no flak guns available to it. It has all the weaknesses of a battleship, with none of the advantages of a battleship or cruiser. People keep using the other battlecruisers/cruisers as justification for lack of improvement to the carrier, and that simply does not work - the liberty battlecruiser is, literally, half the size of the carrier. That means it can avoid supernovas 50% easier than the carrier can, and it also gets more effective range out of it's solaris turrets.
Understandably, the issue here is that improving any of the weapons available to the carrier will overpower other battlecruisers and cruisers because they use the same weapons and dont have the unique disadvantages the carrier has. I realize that nothing can really be done to the weapons themselves without wrecking balance for other ships, but that doesnt mean that nothing should be done to improve the carrier itself.
-The largest gunboats (order gunboat, primarily) are a fair challenge. It's difficult for them to kill me, but it's just as difficult for me to kill them. Cruiser razors dont really seem all that effective in their anti-gunboat role, a single razor hit against an order gunboat hull might take around 1/8th of it's hull down, and the things have a ridiculous recharge time. However, right now I'd say things are fine between the carrier and large gunboats, if I get a lucky mortar hit in after shields go down I can kill them in a single shot.
However, smaller gunboats are impossible to hit with light mortars and razors alike. I honestly think that cruiser razors need a projectile speed buff to be effective against small gunboats/gunships, which from what I gathered on the capship weapons post is what they are MEANT to be used for. Right now, with the right setup, most of the small gunboats could probably solo the carrier with enough time.
-Cruisers are my perfect enemy. The order cruiser (destroyer, technically) is one of the smallest, with only the kusari destroyer being smaller sized, and I can beat that cruiser one on one every single time. Larger cruisers would be far easier to kill IMO, but I havent fought any yet. Right now, cruisers seem to be the only class of ship that I have 100% success against.
-Battlecruisers - I've fought a few other carriers and one lib bc, and so far it seems to go about 50/50. Considering we're the same class of ship, as far as game mechanics go, this seems fine.
-Battleships I have zero chance against. If Cruiser missiles worked as intended, and if they didnt take me almost 50% of my energy to fire, I -might- be able to kill the weakest battleships in an extremely extended fight. I'm not really complaining here though, the carrier doesnt need to be able to kill battleships, no battlecruiser should take them one on one. The nice thing is that, with the carrier's thruster, I can at least escape from lone battleships now that they dont have cruise disruptors or thrusters.
So, my three greatest opponents: Bombers, Small Gunboats, Battleships.
What I'm asking for - An improvement to cruiser razors so that they're more effective against small gunboats, and some kind of improvement to the carrier in particular so that it can at least survive a single bomber.
I think the cruiser razors need a speed buff to around 1200m/s, I dont think that's unreasonable considering battleship razors are 1600m/s right now. Razors are extremely inefficient with extremely long refire times, so it'd be nice to actually hit the enemy when I fire them - I shouldnt have to be 200m from the target to hit a small gunboat with a razor shot.
As far as improving the carrier itself goes, I'm fairly stuck here. I know that we cant feasibly improve the weaponry because that would overpower other ships, but at the same time something still needs to be done. The armor boost was a good start, but not enough - one of the biggest issues I have right now is that as soon as my measly 250k shields go down, my screen shakes so bad that I couldnt hit a battleship at point blank range, so all that extra hull strength really does me little good in a fight.
They are meant to target cruisers and battleships. Maybe they should be renamed to "ballistic missiles", because that's what they really are now. They may seem inefficient for the damage they do, and are fairly easy to shoot down for an enemy fighter paying attention. However, they are meant to disarm enemy capital ships (cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships). They are also very useful for blowing off the turrets on docking rings (or so I saw during the closed beta anyway).
About the flak;
These are meant only to act as a deterrant to fighters and bombers when they get in close. Its very hard to make flaks "better" without making them stupidly good as they were in 4.83. Those with a longer memory of 4.83 will know that cruiser flaks on a Kusari destroyer raped fighters SO hard, it wasn't even funny. Me, 5 seconds, boom. Hilarious, I know, but its not good to return to that.
Get a grip people, and relearn how to use your weapons, and what roles they now fill. Things change; I learnt that a long time ago. You should too.
Missile:
it doesnt do damange to enemy Battleship's shield..or sometime even Cruiser's..give it a bigger explosion radius would fix the problem..and longer range..a little higher speed.(110m/s)..and maybe change the effect to some bigger explosion effect would be cool (use the effect from Mines, i remember one of the effect is a boom then there is a "ring" around it)..and maybe decrease enemy usage to 70~80% of its original
Flaks:
give flak a longer range, so big ships can actually use them and hurt the fighters..and a little higher damage..the flaks takes 10% of fighter's shield each hit..too small..maybe 20~30% would be great..
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