I think we should differentiate between a military alliance and an economic one. The Order and Corsairs are under a military and tech alliance because of their mutual enemies. Yes, the Order does kill other humans, but only -because- they have a noble cause. They don't help out against the Hessians, the other House police/navy, so I really don't see your point, Ben. Plus, they are allied with the Zoners, but for completely different reasons. That alliance is more or less based on intelligence gathering and semi-mutual defense. (If I'm making any mistakes in my lore, please jump in)
Quote:Yes so the Order which is a faction by far the most dedicated towards saving mankind allies itself with Corsairs: a mass of bloodthirsty, anarchic pirates and cutthroats hell bent on dominating Sirius in their own way. Makes a lot of sense, that.
I don't quite understand your point. Mostly because your description of the two factions is fairly far from insightful, or neutral in anyway. Sure, the Corsairs are bloodthirsty pirates bent on domination of Sirius, but don't you think they might have more immediate plans on their minds? Like protecting their territory from Nomads and Bounty Hunters. And acquiring new tech and allies, because remember, not all alliances are forever or even Sector-wide knowledge.
There also seems to be a thinking that if you are friendly or even - gasp - allied with Outcasts or Corsairs you give up your individuality as a faction.
Quote:Basically the alliances in their current state only create masses of plotholes and dumb each involved unlawful faction down. A faction is ideological? It allied with Corsairs, theyre just pirates now. I protest against dumbing down of the RP of each faction like this... as said in posts above this one, nothing is black and white and Sirius shouldnt be either.
What, exactly, is black and white about all this? Outcast/Corsair? Or Lawful vs. Unlawful?
Your ideological faction can still be ideological, it's just that now you have to socialize with someone on a higher level than simply shooting them.
"The thirteen saloons that had lined the one street of Seney had not left a trace. The foundations of the Mansion House hotel stuck up above the ground. The stone was chipped and split by the fire. It was all that was left of the town of Seney. Even the surface had been burned off the ground.
Nick looked at the burned-over stretch of hillside, where he had expected to find the scattered houses of the town and then walked down the railroad track to the bridge over the river. The river was there."
' Wrote:Sure, the Corsairs are bloodthirsty pirates bent on domination of Sirius, but don't you think they might have more immediate plans on their minds? Like protecting their territory from Nomads and Bounty Hunters. And acquiring new tech and allies, because remember, not all alliances are forever or even Sector-wide knowledge.
The Bounty Hunters declared war against the Order long after the Nomad war.. the Order hardly sees Corsairs in their space helping them defend, but it seems like it is giving away plans for all its greatest technology to pirates who then use it to murder navies or other house folk. The Order would be more than aware of actions like this I'd say... why would they give away their weapons? They could be neutral with Corsairs I suppose since they don't need to fight them, but allied? No.
Quote:There also seems to be a thinking that if you are friendly or even - gasp - allied with Outcasts or Corsairs you give up your individuality as a faction.
What, exactly, is black and white about all this? Outcast/Corsair? Or Lawful vs. Unlawful?
Your ideological faction can still be ideological, it's just that now you have to socialize with someone on a higher level than simply shooting them.
No, because suddenly factions who would never aid and abett the Corsairs/Outcasts or even at all care much for them (since both lack influence in a lot of areas of Sirius) suddenly step down to the level of silly pirates who will ally with anyone for the prospect of greater booty. Some factions just have no interest in artifact smuggling or cardamine and thats the two biggest bargaining points the Outcasts and Corsairs have. If anything, alliances with factions that never meet them should be at most based on that (like GC and Hacker alliance to OCs).
Gaians let the Corsairs use Islay as a save base.
Corsairs let gaians enter the Omicrons to buy artefacts that they can use to gain extra cash to support their operations, they might also give away some weapons/ships hat the Gaians cant get themselfs.
So its just an strategic alliance no realy cares about the other.
Like I said, you're just not looking at the full picture. Gaians are a bunch of things. An alliance with the corsairs stops them being all those things, except pirates. What do they get in exchange? Corsair ships and guns. So what do we have? Pirates with corsair ships and corsair guns. Nice gaian there.
The fact is, Gaians don't need anything from the Corsairs, and they lose a huge amount out of being allied.
There is literally no sound reasoning that would result in the gaians allying to the corsairs.
"The Order and Corsairs are under a military and tech alliance because of their mutual enemies. Yes, the Order does kill other humans, but only -because- they have a noble cause. They don't help out against the Hessians, the other House police/navy, so I really don't see your point, Ben."
So your mutual enemies here are...bounty hunters? A mutual dislike of bounty hunters is your entire basis for this alliance? Why aren't unioners involved in this alliance?
Ben]
So your mutual enemies here are...bounty hunters? A mutual dislike of bounty hunters is your entire basis for this alliance? Why aren't unioners involved in this alliance?[/quote]
[quote=Lucend Wrote:The Bounty Hunters initiate a bloody war and Liberty is still very hostile. Nomads are obviously hostile, and so are their worshipers, the Outcasts.
"Ben Wrote:Like I said, you're just not looking at the full picture. Gaians are a bunch of things. An alliance with the corsairs stops them being all those things, except pirates. What do they get in exchange? Corsair ships and guns. So what do we have? Pirates with corsair ships and corsair guns. Nice gaian there.
Gaians are pirates, I don't understand.
Also, I know that simply having the same guns as someone else does NOT mean you are the same character. The SCRA and TBH both had relatively the same guns, but that didn't stop the SCRA from being awesome roleplayers. Besides, are there Corsair agents on Islay that strongarm Gaians into things they don't want to do?! No.
The Nuking of Cork is something to consider, as I would think that would cause tensions.
Could we get some other Gaians in here to tell me if I'm wrong or not?
"The thirteen saloons that had lined the one street of Seney had not left a trace. The foundations of the Mansion House hotel stuck up above the ground. The stone was chipped and split by the fire. It was all that was left of the town of Seney. Even the surface had been burned off the ground.
Nick looked at the burned-over stretch of hillside, where he had expected to find the scattered houses of the town and then walked down the railroad track to the bridge over the river. The river was there."
Why cant the Gaians use the Corsair weapons to stop Spa&Cru from shipping tourists to Shetland?
Do the Corsair weapons explode if you use them for something else then pirating?
The GC is an close ally of the Outcasts, so they gave up all their goals of a new Kusari and only care for cardi/pirating(even though they do care a lot abound cardi but thats the nature of cardi ^^)?
The Hogosha trades artefacts with the Corsairs and are thus friendly with them?
So that makes them mere Pirates?
What i am trying to point out is, that an organisiation with limeted resorces like the Gaians would most likely look out for someone who can help them out in exchange for a favor like landing premissions.
Why would they give up everything and become just pirates the second they make a deal with the Corsairs?
Its not like they must become bussom buddys for ever.
I think one of the main problems here is over thinking some military decisions. Looking back at World War II, Germany was a major superpower, and the Soviet Union and the Allies, despite their various differences, banded together to destroy an immediate threat. Doesn't that seem logical in Sirius as well?
The Order was having difficulty building ships without a working shipyard and may have been eradicated without the help of the Corsairs, hence, the old alliance. Now that they're a bit more settled in, the alliance may be moot, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Corsars and Order went their separate ways. However, as long as there is a mutual interest in fighting the Nomads, and now the Bounty Hunters, in the Omicrons, I don't see where there is a problem in the alliance.
Same goes for the Hessians, Mollys, and Outcasts. Saying that the Outcasts and Hessians or Mollys and Outcasts would never meet is quite a moot point, because where would the Mollys and Hessians meet? Cambridge? The Hessians might be expanding, but, they aren't there yet, and the Mollys only have a minimal presence there because of the Corsairs, even if the Hessians were there. They never see each other, why would they be allied even if they have many mutual interests?
Furthermore, there is a large mutual interest in the alliance between the Outcasts, Mollys, and Hessians, and that is fighting the Corsairs. The Mollys just want Dublin, but the Corsairs are encroaching on that space. They help the Outcasts kick them out, they can put more pressure on the BAF, and liberate Dublin. The Hessians want to control the Omegas. The Outcasts put additional pressure on the Corsairs in the Sigmas, and the Hessians have more of a window to attack the Corsairs. It's a simple equation, really, and we're over thinking it a bit.
If the Hessians/Mollys and Outcasts lose their alliance, we'll get the cold war effect before they should logically dislike each other. They have a mutual interest, still, and it should still be their paramount objective, is it not?
Anyway, back on topic:
' Wrote:Like I said, you're just not looking at the full picture. Gaians are a bunch of things. An alliance with the corsairs stops them being all those things, except pirates. What do they get in exchange? Corsair ships and guns. So what do we have? Pirates with corsair ships and corsair guns. Nice gaian there.
The fact is, Gaians don't need anything from the Corsairs, and they lose a huge amount out of being allied.
There is literally no sound reasoning that would result in the gaians allying to the corsairs.
What exactly are they losing? They don't lose their individuality as a faction at all, but they get the ability to fund themselves, instead of relying on the Green Front completely, and they get leverage in the larger view of what the Corsairs do to Bretonia. I don't see anything wrong with these things. The Hogosha and FA might be allied to the Corsairs, but neither of them are Sirius-Conquering pirates who are driven fully by greed, just like a Corsair clone. They're their own factions, why do we think the Gaians should react differently?
' Wrote:So your mutual enemies here are...bounty hunters? A mutual dislike of bounty hunters is your entire basis for this alliance? Why aren't unioners involved in this alliance?
Because by allying with the Corsairs, they actually lost their most important life line: Diamond smuggling. The Unioners are mostly terrorists, and so they don't do much piracy, from what I understand, and so without the diamonds from the Hessians to be smuggled back to Liberty, they lost their entire economy. That is why they're neutral.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
You know, a lot of it can depend on how you view the Corsairs, too. One view can easily be that they're just a bit of a less lawful House, only turning to piracy because their own systems can't support them when it comes to food and other supplies. Their main income otherwise is from selling what may be harmless artifacts (as opposed to the mutating, addictive drugs of the Outcasts).
On the other hand, they've apparently nuked a planet, as well as being buddies with the Phantoms, whom the Gaian do not like for their planetary attacks.
The problem I see with resolving it is that I've never seen anything from the Corsairs' point of view about the Cork thing. I didn't even know it for quite a while since it's a bit of a small blurb in a guard system and all.
If it's the former view, and they were to, say, want the Gaians help in making an eco-friendly and viable means of supporting themselves in ways other than piracy, then I see absolutely no problem with it. If it's primarily the latter, there are issues.
Of course, it could be that various Corsair groups are more of one than the other. Perhaps it's best to say the Gaians are allied/friendly with SOME Corsairs while not necessarily others?
Your last point is actualy interesting, but hard to acctualy get done ingame.
Maybe we could keep their faction relations as they are but include some new rumors with the next version that point out certain tensions.
People are looking at these alliances as black and white. Because you ally with the corsairs don't make you bloodthirsy pirates, or cardi users. There are benefits to gain from an alliance not just in military assets.
Hakatoa Yamota, Fuku-Honbucho in the Black Dragon Society
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