The Order of the Lion

[jammi]

i hope they are not serious... bretonia base in theta? i dont think that bretonians know where theta is ....

Actually, there is firm ground for Bretonians knowing about Omicron Theta. For starters, Cryer know about it, and one of their major instalations is in Cambridge (a weak link I know) and the second peice of evidence is that there is a Bowex exploration freighter wreck orbiting the planet in the Eta nebula.

One final note, in Omega 49, I am reading elsewhere that Gran Canaria is currently unknown to Bretonia but you appear to be aware of it and are preparing to map it. Corsairs are there at the behest of the Zoners, as well as an apparant large corsair population on GC itself.

That was in the last version Bretonia didn't know about Gran Canaria. Now, there's a bit in the last paragrapgh of the infocard that mentions Bretonian scouts being planetside.


And other than those minor nit-picking details, I'm outa here. I don't like the tone or direction this thread is taking.

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[Hawkwings]

In theory, they are a powerful faction. but in practice, they have no true central government, and have various kinks and branches in the chain of command. Also, to your first comment. you say that Freelancer lore trumps in-game actions. However, it is the in-game actions that shape the freelancer world. they need each other. without in game actions, lore has no meaning. without lore, the in game actions would be useless and forgotten.the third and 2nd comments i will not answer. 2nd comment seems like a repeat of the first, and third seems to be between you and zig

Yes, in-game actions shape lore. However, the effect is not immediate. If every Corsair, including the factions, started RPing like they were a bunch of squabbling and disorganized pirates, then yes, the written lore in rumors and infocards would start to change. But that stuff doesn't happen immediately. The In-RP explanation would be that *some* Corsairs are disorganized, but there is a central organization represented by the NPCs.

It's my firm belief that our "little pipsqueak squadron" is capable of facing the Corsairs. That is, both in terms of the Corsair player base and in terms of the abstract Corsair Empire.

Then you are sadly mistaken. There is no way that small a group can take out that big a group. Even if you were invincible and never got hit in battle, there would still be no way. It's like asking a modern special forces team with the appropriate knowledge and skills to take out the roman empire at the height of its power. The scale is simply too wide. You'd die of old age first. Scale down your goals.

My arguments as to that can be found a page or two back. I've always been of the opinion that the (in-roleplay) actions of the players representing NPC factions influence said factions to a certain degree, right down to the purely theoretical parts. The Corsairs cannot organize to attack Bretonia and would not organize to attack Bretonia.

You are correct in that player actions do change lore. However, this happens gradually, and by Igiss decree. If he says that Corsairs fracture and splinter apart, then it happens, and is reflected in the infocards. Not before.

The Corsairs are vulnerable, and the Order of the Lion is trained and equipped to exploit those vulnerabilities. If the Corsairs launched an attack against Bretonia, the Empire would only become even more vulnerable and even more likely to break apart at the seams. As the Order operates far away from Bretonia and politically separately to a large degree, launching a revenge operation against Bretonia, beyond not being feasible, wouldn't even make sense - that'd be like Saladin invading England during the historical Third Crusade.

Hmm... citizens of a country attack your country, equipped with military hardware from that other country. And they say that they're only loosely affiliated. OK then, given those pre-conditions, what would the logical reprise be? Well, first, I would figure out where these groups are being supplied from. Then I would destroy their supply bases. Guess where the supplies are coming from? And besides, the Corsairs already don't like Bretonia. It doesn't take much to push them over the edge and into invasion and nuke mode.

Zoners own exactly one system - Omicron-74. That's it. Omicron Theta is unclaimed space. Any such base would be well-hidden and even better-protected, namely by the bulk of the crusade's forces.

If you want to stay hidden, don't have a bunch of patrols around your base, and make it look like a rock.

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[Zelot]

At the advice of those wiser than me, I am going to step out of this, as I have made my opinion known.

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[Zig]

Yes, in-game actions shape lore. However, the effect is not immediate. If every Corsair, including the factions, started RPing like they were a bunch of squabbling and disorganized pirates, then yes, the written lore in rumors and infocards would start to change. But that stuff doesn't happen immediately. The In-RP explanation would be that *some* Corsairs are disorganized, but there is a central organization represented by the NPCs.

Well, um, that's exactly what I see happening, isn't it? Whether intentionally or unintentionally, Corsair roleplay makes the Corsairs appear to be a bunch of squabbling and disorganized pirates. Sure seems that way.

Then you are sadly mistaken. There is no way that small a group can take out that big a group. Even if you were invincible and never got hit in battle, there would still be no way. It's like asking a modern special forces team with the appropriate knowledge and skills to take out the roman empire at the height of its power. The scale is simply too wide. You'd die of old age first. Scale down your goals.

It's a lofty goal, and we never assumed we're necessarily going to succeed at it. We plan to begin by chipping away at the Corsair Empire's outer defenses, then gradually work our way up, in collaboration with those Corsair players that have established quality roleplay. Our OORP relations to the official factions, which don't necessarily come under the above heading, obviously aren't the greatest right now. It remains to be seen how their stance towards us will develop. Wait and see, I suppose. However, is an assault against the Corsairs viable at this point and time? I still believe so, yes.

You are correct in that player actions do change lore. However, this happens gradually, and by Igiss decree. If he says that Corsairs fracture and splinter apart, then it happens, and is reflected in the infocards. Not before.

Well, Igiss isn't the most talkative guy. I doubt he's ever actually made a statement to that effect, so this is all idle speculation.

Hmm... citizens of a country attack your country, equipped with military hardware from that other country. And they say that they're only loosely affiliated. OK then, given those pre-conditions, what would the logical reprise be? Well, first, I would figure out where these groups are being supplied from. Then I would destroy their supply bases. Guess where the supplies are coming from? And besides, the Corsairs already don't like Bretonia. It doesn't take much to push them over the edge and into invasion and nuke mode.

If the Corsairs were to plan and actually manage launch a force sufficiently large to pose a threat to Bretonia, the Crusaders would A) harass this force all the way to New London and B) take advantage of most of the Corsair warfleet's absence to strike at Corsair homespace with even greater efficiency. Oh, and so would every other enemy the Corsair Empire has, of which there's a diverse assortment. Logical consequences.

If you want to stay hidden, don't have a bunch of patrols around your base, and make it look like a rock.

Yep, that's the plan.

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Luls:

Role-play is not the be all and end all.

[Markam]

Despite Zig having a reputation of sorts, suprising I honestly have no problem whatsoever with this faction, the arguements against it seem sort of weak, I am usually reminded that the members of the BAF player faction have little impact towards the war (if we did, well..), and honestly there isnt a great deal for us to fight up in Leeds, like I said on skype:

[20:59:21] Markam: losing the war? we are at war?
[20:59:31] Markam: i thought kusari was just squatting
[20:59:59] Markam: get together on saturday for a game of cricket, they'll probably go eventually?

I'd say, with this faction representing only a few exBAF, and mostly civilians, lords and the like, and not even a real NPC faction, their numbers would only be as many members as they have, 11? how many BAF NPC pilots are in Cambridge? hundreds? thousands? how many civilians are about? milions. We've tons of NPC patrols in Omega 3 likewise, the corsairs arent giving us mercy, they're fighting with us plenty, we are just doing as we are in the Kusari war with the maximum available. There will always be a need for pilots in Cambridge, these may just draw from a few of them.

All really small scale stuff, but the more they hurt the corsairs with their actions, the more real BAF pilots are free to help in Leeds, from a RP point of view, knock out a supply ship of the corsairs, delay a raid or two, that sort of thing.

But most importantly, I cant be bloody arsed to drag my templar to omega 3 to shoot some silly funboats pirating the Bretonia> Rhineland route, some chaps want to base off the omega 3 BMM base? bloody good of them I say!

[Zig]

Jeez, what reputation do I have, and with whom? Might as well straighten this out once and for all. Tell me, straight up. If this is impacting this faction, as it seems to be doing, it's important that I understand who exactly is ranged against me as faction leader and why.

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Luls:

Role-play is not the be all and end all.

[pipboy]

As the Order operates far away from Bretonia and politically separately to a large degree, launching a revenge operation against Bretonia, beyond not being feasible, wouldn't even make sense - that'd be like Saladin invading England during the historical Third Crusade.

Not at all, seeing as how the Corsair's ZOI borders and actually crosses into the Bretonian one, it wouldn't be like Saladin invading England at all.

It would be more like if independent orders of knights based out of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Principality of Antioch pissed off Saladin and he invaded those Kingdoms to get revenge for what the knightly orders did to his people..

Oh wait.... That's exactly what happened...

If the Corsairs were to plan and actually manage launch a force sufficiently large to pose a threat to Bretonia, the Crusaders would A) harass this force all the way to New London and B) take advantage of most of the Corsair warfleet's absence to strike at Corsair homespace with even greater efficiency. Oh, and so would every other enemy the Corsair Empire has, of which there's a diverse assortment. Logical consequences.

You're forgetting the one little fact that the Corsairs could easily send a couple battle groups, which is plenty to do major damage against the very weak Bretonian Armed Forces, and still leave Gamma very heavily defended. We're not talking about a one battleship faction here. The Corsairs have more than enough forces to spare. And besides, you theoretically have what - a few dozen ships in your order? So basically the Corsairs could send hundreds of ships to Bretonia, leave hundreds behind to defend Gamma, and they need to worry about you?

Sure you could harass them, but your talking about using gorilla tactics against the Corsairs.. That isn't like using those tactics against a house military. That's like trying to fight a huge fire with a candle, the Corsairs are very good at that type of warfare. Better at it than a group of ex military types would be.

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[Hawkwings]

Well, um, that's exactly what I see happening, isn't it? Whether intentionally or unintentionally, Corsair roleplay makes the Corsairs appear to be a bunch of squabbling and disorganized pirates. Sure seems that way.

But none of that is reflected in the official Corsair NPC faction information, given by infocards and rumors. When, and only when, those change, is the Corsair NPC faction going to change. You can't base a judgement of an entire NPC faction on the actions of players.

Regarding the Kusari vs Bretonia war thing, as I understood, [KNF] used to win a lot against BAF|, which is why the KNF NPC faction now has a presence in Leeds, and why the game story is the way it is. Next mod update, I expect things will develop further.

And yeah, it does take a whole mod update to change a faction's standing. Unless the admins decide to do it within one version's lifetime, of course.

It's a lofty goal, and we never assumed we're necessarily going to succeed at it. We plan to begin by chipping away at the Corsair Empire's outer defenses, then gradually work our way up, in collaboration with those Corsair players that have established quality roleplay. Our OORP relations to the official factions, which don't necessarily come under the above heading, obviously aren't the greatest right now. It remains to be seen how their stance towards us will develop. Wait and see, I suppose. However, is an assault against the Corsairs viable at this point and time? I still believe so, yes.

Just how many combat pilots do you envision this faction to have? A dozen? A hundred? A thousand? If you have a dozen or a hundred, you're not going to make a dent in the Corsairs within your lifetime. Anything over a thousand, and your supply lines become vulnerable. It's foolish to think that in-rp, your freighters would not get raided by Corsair pirates, or that your best pilots are significantly better than their best pilots.

Well, Igiss isn't the most talkative guy. I doubt he's ever actually made a statement to that effect, so this is all idle speculation.

Irrelevant. My point still stands, story stuff changes when Igiss says it does.

If the Corsairs were to plan and actually manage launch a force sufficiently large to pose a threat to Bretonia, the Crusaders would A) harass this force all the way to New London and B) take advantage of most of the Corsair warfleet's absence to strike at Corsair homespace with even greater efficiency. Oh, and so would every other enemy the Corsair Empire has, of which there's a diverse assortment. Logical consequences.

There's things called reserves, you know, that are pulled into active duty for home defense when battleships sally out to war. And yes, you can go ahead and harass the battlefleet all the way to Cambridge, but that's all you'll be able to accomplish. Bretonia is not Russia and the Corsairs are not Napoleon's Grande Armee. Again, reference the size of your group. If you've only got a dozen pilots, they might sacrifice three squadrons of fighters to keep you all busy, and then go on their merry way. If you bring out all hundred or thousand combat pilots, then, well, what an excellent opportunity to either attack your bases, or simply bring their fleet to bear on you and wipe you out, since you're presenting such a nice target. Whatever you propose to do, the Corsairs (NPCs) can do better, because they are larger and have more resources. By virtue of being larger, they present a bigger target, yes, but it doesn't matter how big a target you are if the enemy can't hurt you.

Really, the dilemma you face here is a problem that all militant guerrilla groups face. Too small and you can't accomplish much. Too big, and you draw too much attention and get stomped flat. There is simply no getting around this, unless you change the basis of your faction's idea.

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[globalplayer-svk]

ok zig, third try about base in theta.
You know why corsairs or outcast dont have base in theta???
i typed it in previous post. and you think that they let you build base there?
and even if your order of lions manage to build it, how long it can stay hidden ?? few hours? and when corsairs find it, how long can that base survive????
Corsairs can send huge and massive fleets of cruisers, and bombers and dreadnoughts to destroy that base...
it isthe same as base of corsairs HIDDEN in cambridge and used for attacks and destroying the bretonia goverment ....
and how long can survive a group of civilians in oldbretonia military ships? one fight? two fights? what then? new ships from military when they need them against kusari? or new ships from zonerS? that will make things between zoners and corsairs worse. and i amsure noonefrom them will it...
and in time when YOUR ORDER will try not to die few seconds after jumping to gamma,and baf will try to survive in leeds, who will guard bretonia??? mollies?

(is the same as one group from us navy seals trying to destroy whole north korea goverment... impossible)

and sorry, show me, why is this not a pure PvP faction proposal thats only rp will be undock,jump to gamma, die, log off...

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[teschy]

Now then, Globalo, unless you stop repeating yourself over and over in new posts, I suggest you either make up something more elaborate, constructive, and with a degree of common sense, or leave the discussion. This is getting silly, really.