This Weeks Hypothetical Scenario

[swift]

Hah, actual competition.
But for them to set prices responsibly, I think that they should have some motivation to set them properly, to set some competition up.
Cause you see, otherwise we might see abuse in the form of deliberately setting a high price for something and then selling it there, for example.
Perhaps if official factions who own bases got part of the money their stations peddled?
Yeah, I know you consider it too drastic.

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[Cyberanson]

Hmm, interesting idea to give away some cash to the faction, who owns the base where you sell something. But I think that wouldn't be an improvement, rather then just indirect powergaming.

And I don't think that the powers of setting the prices would be abused. All of the official faction leaders can be considered trusted members, at least in my eyes. Otherwise they would not have been approved.

I was looking for some way to strengthen the ties between my ALG and our allies (Gateway, Kruger, IMG) for a long time now, but I couldn't come up with something better than some forum RP and bonus payments for the deliveries. If I would have had a possibility to set the prices of certain commodities for their IDs, that would have been awesome.

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[swift]

Well okay, I guess they couldn't really go change prices on a whim, the admins'd see it first, and preferably pass it to whoever's doing the economy system to check the level of profits so it's not over 190 cr/s or something.

Frankly, I'd love this kind of idea, as we could finally attract some more traders where we'd want. Say this or that area is a bit lacking in traders, then we make it a bit sweeter for a faction by making a trading deal with them, and in turn we get more presence in a certain area as well as profits for all.

Now as for a fully dynamic economy, that coin has two sides. I can't really know how it'd turn out, but what I know is that there could be problems with it seeing we don't have that many players.

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[Cyberanson]

Now as for a fully dynamic economy, that coin has two sides. I can't really know how it'd turn out, but what I know is that there could be problems with it seeing we don't have that many players.

Indeed. But I think it should be worth a try anyways. Maybe we would get all those slot saving players to finally do proper roleplay instead of drifting around, heh. To be honest: maybe all these Zoner powertraders will start to trade like they are supposed to do and support some bases with basic commodities. I bet OSI will do that right from the start, at least for the outer reaches.

And do not forget the NPCs, which transport goods, too. Sometimes you can see them dock on bases with certain goods when you are around a station. They could compensate at least some price fluctuations, if it would be possible.

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[swift]

Oh and, another thing. If such a thing would come to pass, I'd think we need to make commodities like food, water, oxygen, and the likes profitable.
We could do that simply by making a say, 5k transport hold, I'm just guessing here, 60k food. You get the picture, anyways, and yes, it is possible to do.

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[Belco]

Yes some other server has implemented it (Hamburg City i think?), but discovery has something they dont.
Discovery unlike alot of servers has 200mill battleships, 100mill transports, and even for a decent competitive VHF you're spending atleast 5mill on the ship, equipment, and rep hacks.

This is a great idea to breathe new life into an aspect of the game that is boring and repetitive if you already have a 5k cargo transport, a cap ship and every fighter you want.
is this in anyway going to hurt profits for a new player who is trading to get a decent ship?

EDIT:just saw this

Oh and, another thing. If such a thing would come to pass, I'd think we need to make commodities like food, water, oxygen, and the likes profitable.
We could do that simply by making a say, 5k transport hold, I'm just guessing here, 60k food. You get the picture, anyways, and yes, it is possible to do.

NPC's are the only ones transporting oxygen and water right now because of it's low profits. However, scan an NPC transport next time you see one, they usually carry alot more then their ships cargo hold would allow them, 99,999 or 9,999 or something similar. no wonder they're transporting cheap commodities to the next system, they're still going to make tons carrying that amount.

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Ingame: Luxury Liner PGL-Winfield | Sal_Paradise | Victor.Fane

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[Cyberanson]

Well roly, if such a feature would get implemented, it should be balanced wisely, in order to not to underpower the relatively new independent traders. On the other hand it should be obvious for all, that you would gain more money if you join a faction. But it shouldn't be so drastically, that trading with an indy is senseless. Not to mention the smugglers.

And the oxygen thingy: it would be nice, if the needed cargo room could be like... divided by ten, so that the quantity would compensate the profit.

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[Belco]

i disagree and think under a dynamic economy, joining a faction would make you less profit.

i can easily see all traders becoming independent because they will need to be flexible.
infact if it all falls over, we'll have indy traders carrying only food and water because they're risk free commodities, and there'll always be a base nearby that needs them, you wont be able to guaranty anything else.

if we want to see low price commodities being flown around, and more players joining trading factions (i do) i'd like to see player factions offering a salary instead of the profit you get from the cargo.

say you work as a trader for planetform, you fly alien organisms to a planet undergoing terraforming, give the profits (eg. 10mill) to your factions bank and get payed a 5mill salary for the run.
next run, you transport terraforming gasses, or water, or oxygen, you send the profits to the factions bank (1mill this time) and get payed 5 mill salary.

just an idea, i really like it


back to the dynamic economy
it will have an adverse effect on very RP actions such as convoys, where the last person to dock in the convoy will be making peanuts.
also mining, will lose any profitability

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Ingame: Luxury Liner PGL-Winfield | Sal_Paradise | Victor.Fane

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[Agran Harper]

I see a multitude of problems with dynamic economy in Sirius, as well as some disturbances within some point of views. If you want to implement a dynamic economy to add the feel and realism, you should note that it is not done with shoving goods around.
If you say that certain traderoutes need to be "balanced" because of powertrading, then its another thing (which I will talk about at the end of this post).
Having said that, creating a dynamic economy is something I don't know how it would be created. Is FLHook capable of running the necessary lines of code to reflect that? Would there be a database running beside the server which is constantly fed and nurtured by the game logs which show how much of what is sold and bought? Which program then would read the database and rewrite the inis on the fly to reflect the change without a server reset? Would that even be possible? I have not the foggiest how other mods managed to create a dynamic economy, but from what I heard, its far from stable. And judging from a few other facts, its far from "realistic" as well;

First and foremost; there are not only players transporting! NPCs haul plenty of stuff around, and they are certainly numerous. Under any circumstance, the Sirius economy must not be solely dependant on player trading! That would make the whole thing ridiculously stupid when a few players decide the rise and fall of a planet, with billions of people on it, by declining the shipment of consumer goods. :wacko:
Second; players joining a faction should be far from making PROFIT with that. it is their JOBS to run goods from A to B, and they never, ever, EVER should be able to fill their very own bag with the run they just made. That is another "severe" problem I guess.

Next, there are basically three kinds of commodities; 1) those that are always direly needed, 2) those which are not really that mandatory for personal use (consumer goods in general), and 3) everything that is "produced" to be used (sorry for my horrible phrasing). Depending on what kind of a commodity it is, the prices would need to shift in a different manner.

1. For example, Oxygen, food rations and stuff like that are mandatory on any kind of starbase-ish thing. The more remote the starbase is, the higher the demand (as it was reflected in prices in original Freelancer). Please bear in mind, the base would not STARVE if the players do not ship to it, because they certainly have their very own personnel to take care of that manner (as most bases are owned by someone else anyway, having contracts set up). But with dangerous times, there is always the risk that these commodities become short in supply. So players might help out that way, yes, totally, and get their reputation for doing that.
   Despite that, some "bases" should not be affected by the demand at all... I mean, Norfolk station? Battleship Missouri? They are in the lap of Liberty and there should be no problem at ALL to support these bases. So its not done with shifting prices according to "mandatory" commodities, but rather shift prices for "mandatory commodities at locations not easily accessable". And frankly, as in original Freelancer, those price differences are already balanced out. If you say, that nobody uses such trade routes because they are not profitable, then I say "then do one of these routes every now and then BECAUSE of RP. period."
   
   
2. Personal use goods like consumer stuff and cardamine and artifacts and whatnot. Their demand is not really mandatory, and its very difficult to flood/cut off the market with such commodities, so the price shifts would be rather slim, if anything. There will always be a constant flow of demand and availability to those. Also, we should bear in mind which bases would be affected by that and which would not be. The next thing, to those professional traders which are PART of a Faction that is exactly doing a majority of transporting; you take the place of some NPCs that we see along the line, you are fulfilling the contracts and stuff like that. Just out for RP reasons, the money from these trades should be forwarded to someone else, as you are only the transport of the goods and not the buyer / seller. But ignore what I just said, that would completely go out of bounds if I chase that thought.
   So; these types of commodities should only shift in a few credits of price, if anything. Perhaps this would change something on the long run, that is left to witness.
   
   
3. The last category is something like the mentioned engine components, ship hull paneels, and the like for ship production or similiar things. This is based off a set production line. It would say; "We need a specific number of the materials X, Y and Z to produce 1 unit of product Beta." So, after a certain number of shipment is brought, the halls of the shipyard (for example) would say, "our quota is full. We no longer need Material B, please wait for the next cycle". So this commodity should effectively be prohibited to be sold, or have a ridiuclously low price that equals a loss for certain. It would be activated again when the next "cycle" starts (server reset? 6 hours?).
   
   Another note on this; there are only so much products produced. One should NEVER be able to draw of an indefinite pool of something that takes time and effort to create. So nobody should be able to purchase hundreds of thousands "engine components" if there is only a limited number produced. Alas, there should be a "stock" on the station which allows only that much trading until the next cycle is done.
   

So much for that. Its not done with a pure dynamic economy where the players dictacte the prices due to their (in)actions. This is not Eve Online. The majority of trading in Freelancer takes place on a base of NPCs, not vice versa.

Now, for the POWERTRADING thing;
If the logs are capable of recording how much of a commodity is sold and bought, as well as the position where it is bought and sold, then the solution to get rid of powertraders is rather easy;
Adjust the prices by hand of commodities that are traded beyond what is good. They run the most profitable routes they are capable of, and that mostly means that the things are either fairly cheap to get a good margin, or they are high priced goods in general. If only the same routes are flown, its very easy to trim down the prices by hand.

The bottom line:

1. Is there a need to create a dynamic economy just to get rid of the powertraders? NO. Changing the prices from the hands of the server admin would do for that matter.
   
2. Should proper RP by transporting lowpriced goods which are direly needed be rewarded? YES. But not with money.
   
3. Are there enough player traders out there to justify a shift in economy on the long run, judging of how many NPCs there are out, transporting? No, I honestly do not think so.
   
4. Should Factions like Universal Shipping or BMM or ALG or whoever is big enough be able to alter the prices of certain commodities? Yes, why not? Depending on RP, reason and consequence, it is something that definitely is worth looking into. These would be manually edited files, thus providing only manpower, and not a database which could cause instability and lagg. Also, these would be worldshaping events, so something the whole community would feel! :yahoo:
   
5. We must never forget that MINING would also be affected by a dynamic economy. It soon could be deemed worthless, if certain stations are flooded with the material "they need". I think its also sufficiently done with the logs and manual reshaping of prices. I see no need to jeopardize the stability of a server just to "balance" mining?
   

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To hunt the prey is life,
to lose the prey is death,
to hunt the loss is insane...

[Panzer]

And I think making it dymanic would only bring good. Sure, I do expect initial problems - a lot of them actually, but in the end, we'll have a very sophisticated economy to run.

My ideal for that is comining mining, trading and processing on bases. Like... Take sigma 13 - junkers and ALG mine scrap metal, but helgoland and Yanagi have pre-defined/coded consumption modifies. If too much scrap rolls in, the prices drop. If less than expected - they rise. Then, depending on hos much scrap got left on the base, a set amount of alloys gets produced at a price also dependat on how much of it leaves the base. However, the junker/ALG have to work with something, so... Tools, food, water, etc... it's complicated, because a consumption/supply/demand model would have to be mde for every base.


And speaking of NPCs... Perhaps make players control them? Merchant fleet anyone?

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