bombers (discussion only)

[Lunaphase]

thats what solaris and secondarys are supposed to be... but they just.. yea. no.

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[Tenacity]

Even if solarises were able to hit an enemy at a decent range, their damage is pathetic.

Cruisers dont have secondary turrets, only battleships, and the battleship versions are slower than even the cruiser primaries.

Capship point defense in this mod is pure crap, no other way to explain it. Bomber pilots adamantly refuse to let us buff point defense weaponry, and at the same time they refuse to let us buff fighters or nerf bombers. Shame that the people with the most powerful, best all-around ships are running this mod.

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[Friday]

WHat in the five farts are you talking about Tenacity?

I am a GMG bomber pilot - we rely on these ships probably more than anyone else.

Yet I started the thread to raise fighter weapon projectile speed, what is with that?

I agree that fighters need the ability to speed up their combat - but I will be DAMNED if I will let our Kaichou Strike Craft be nerfed so the LolCapFleets can march all over us!

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[Tenacity]

WHat in the five farts are you talking about Tenacity?

I am a GMG bomber pilot - we rely on these ships probably more than anyone else.

Yet I started the thread to raise fighter weapon projectile speed, what is with that?

I agree that fighters need the ability to speed up their combat - but I will be DAMNED if I will let our Kaichou Strike Craft be nerfed so the LolCapFleets can march all over us!

I would be happy if fighters got improved to the point where they can take out bombers before my cap gets blown up. I dont mind relying on others for some survivability, but they need to actually be effective in their role. Right now, I can have 6 fighters protecting my carrier, and 3-4 bombers can easily take me out before being killed.

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[Tovig]

My proposals :

- Create class 6 turrets for bombers, which will be hullbuster or shieldbuster with huge damage, very slow refire rate, very bad projectile speed and good range. Very usefull against caps but useless against fighters.

- Bring them bigger and slower, like the Barghest, with 2 torp + CD.

- Let the armor around 20k hull and give them a freighter shield class 6 (around 25k shield).

- ????

- Profit !!

[NonSequitor]

I agree that fighters need the ability to speed up their combat - but I will be DAMNED if I will let our Kaichou Strike Craft be nerfed so the LolCapFleets can march all over us!

And this is one of the reasons why bombers are so tactically multi-purpose now. Fear of the lolwutters.

The thing is, many of the suggestions that have been made in this thread and others, would not drastically weaken the bomber's ability to take out cap ships. But it would make bombers more vulnerable to fighters.

For the sake of progressing in this debate in a constructive direction, let's say that cap ship point defenses will remain untouched. No buffs. Point defense turrets are pathetic, but oh well.

Then let's review ways to keep a bomber deadly vs. capships, but make them more vulnerable to fighters. Here's some ideas that I recall:

1) lower number of bots and bats
2) less hull
3) turning reduced, strafe stays the same (to dodge capship fire)
4) increased size (the Barghest/Mjolnir argument)
5) one less hardpoint for guns
6) a combination of some of the aforementioned

Discuss.

[McNeo]

My proposals :

- Create class 6 turrets for bombers, which will be hullbuster or shieldbuster with huge damage, very slow refire rate, very bad projectile speed and good range. Very usefull against caps but useless against fighters.
<snip>

That sounds like launching a mini razor every pass. Except, now I can put a CD there, or inferno if I'm so inclined.
For people who focus on aiming guns, such a change would make bombers more effective, not less.

Its very hard to find a perfect substitute. Unfortunately, most people go head to head in physical terms with a bomber in a VHF at least once in a battle. I do it too, if I count, about five times in a battle against bombers, and I've paid for it many times. Once you go head to head, speed matters less and raw power matters more. Raw power is what the bomber has, and always will have, unless the entire concept is revisited.

[JakeSG]

Topic has had enough grace time from me.

The shaking screen is a real pain for cap pilots.

The flipside of nerfing bombers is that you are effectively buffing caps - and a range of large, well armoured ships with powerful weapons that are freely available creates plenty of problems.

The problem has to dealt with holistically - you can't have everything in one ship. Maybe boost VHF power plant and increase minirazors speed.

This sums up all my opinions on the new points. If you can find a way to make anti-bomber defenses to be more powerful without letting everything else steamroll them, go ahead. As has been said before, they are the ONLY defense against lolwuts despite more caps. If you can find a way to make six bombers as effective as three, go ahead, but the reason it's possible to beat one with so few is when the lolwuts come knocking on your door, you try finding even three half-competent bombers to push them back. If you buff caps without some kind of restrictions on who can access them, then you're back with having your Capital Planet/Home Station/Guard System zergrushed by capital ships. And before somebody inevitably complains about me stereotyping, at no point did I say that all Cap pilots are that irresponsible.

If you nerf bombers or buff capital ships, you completely change the balance that we have now, and we'll ultimately end up worse off than we were previously. One could perhaps buff Solaris, or return the old missiles now that vanilla weaknesses have been removed, removing the screen shake would deffinitely be a fair balance, but unless you want to pay the Admins to be around 24/7 to make sure such abuse doesn't occur, yes, the bombers are the role-play police.

Forgot my third paragraph, but I'm getting the definite feeling I'm repeating points and in return being ignored :/

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For the Core.

[Tovig]

That sounds like launching a mini razor every pass. Except, now I can put a CD there, or inferno if I'm so inclined.
For people who focus on aiming guns, such a change would make bombers more effective, not less.

Its very hard to find a perfect substitute. Unfortunately, most people go head to head in physical terms with a bomber in a VHF at least once in a battle. I do it too, if I count, about five times in a battle against bombers, and I've paid for it many times. Once you go head to head, speed matters less and raw power matters more. Raw power is what the bomber has, and always will have, unless the entire concept is revisited.

More effective ? Just don't joust the bomber. If he is slower and bigger, it will be easy for a VHF to stay behind the bomber and safely pwnd him. Bombers will be still very efficient against caps.

[X-Lancer]

stop using the logic:

Caps=lulzwutter
Bomber=solution to take out lulzwutter