Gaians are not 'Bretonian' anymore

[Altaris]

I dont know...

Each house has its own pirates of origin exactly the same as the one mentioned house. RHA are rheinlanders, Blood Dragons are Kusarians so Gaians are bretonians. Only exception is Outcasts and Corsairs, who are pretty much all over the sirius. But they are also largest pirate societies, two parts of one completely another house.

No, i think Gaians are bretonians maybe with some Kusari exiles within. Each pirate faction can have members within, which were born in some other houses, but that doesnt change the fact that mentioned pirate faction as whole was formed in XXX house.

Gaians are brets. My point of view.

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Carnage itself flying within void...
Proud cardihead ever since 2008...
You all gonna eat cardi!

...also im a troll, so hate me.

[farmerman]

I dont know...

Each house has its own pirates of origin exactly the same as the one mentioned house. RHA are rheinlanders, Blood Dragons are Kusarians so Gaians are bretonians. Only exception is Outcasts and Corsairs, who are pretty much all over the sirius. But they are also largest pirate societies, two parts of one completely another house.

I'm not entirely sure that's a good comparison. The Hessians and Dragons both have strong nationalistic roots, having been inspired by the Popular Revolution and that coup respectively. The Gaians are much more similar to the Hackers (group originally formed from a common profession), GMG (similar, though with that planetary part added in), or Rogues (random lowlife types).

There's another big point about the origins I didn't think of until now. There is a strong tendency to get Gaians - both originally and in new recruitment - from Cambridge University. Now, I'm not sure about you, but my experience with larger universities is that they tend to get people from all over the place. Cambridge and the CRI are at the foremost in a lot of research areas, so would a scientist or science student necessarily be Bretonian?

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[Panzer]

Whether gayans should or should not be considered Bretonian patriots/citizens depends solely on the militancy of their members; whether as a collective they find foreign occupation more environment-friendly than the current Bretonian rule.

In my op, once the treehuggers started carrying guns and shooting government representatives, they quite automatically made the decision for the whole movement. There didn't need to be a formal renouncement of citizenship because UNLESS an amnesty is issued, gayans are terrorists according to bretonian law and therefore (correct me if I am wrong) each police or armed forces fellow has standing orders to capture them to put on trial and sentence to death by some environment-friendly rope (lead poisoning is a big-no-no) or if that proves impossible due to "resiting arrest" - just blast him outta the stars and fill in a report afterwards. Case closed.

If you ask me, the only way for it to make any sense at all, that Gayans legitimately fight on the Bretonian side against "foreign" invaders is the queen's government issuing an amnesty - "charges dropped if you abandon the movement. You may bring your rag-tag ship, but that's not necessary". But then they don't fight as Gayans - they fight as ex-criminals who saw the light.

And how does this actually work ingame?

Some random NLH and BPA fight in Leeds, then some KNF indie shows up. Bretonians both turn around to smash the weaboo, after he's dead they either continue the duel or part ways on an "I'll get you yet!" basis.

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[The_Scarlet_Pimpernel]

::sigh:: time for you to bottle off & troll flood kiddo

I gave you an opportunity to stand on higher ground, but you effed up & tripped again.

Anyone have any better arguments that have legs enough that don't buckle early on into stupid grammar nazi'ing?

I thought you asked for peoples opinions.
Why dont you discuss what I say if you disagree, instead of using set phrases that hold no content and trying to discredit a person to discredit their argument if they disagree.

And what I said was not grammar nazi-ing. I dont pay much attention to grammar and spelling much myself, because its a silly thing to do, especially on a forum where people with different native tongue post.
But whether you say Iraq for Iran and antidote instead of anecdote, it completely changes the meaning of what you say.

@The_Scarlet_Pimpernel: At first I thought you were just trying fiercely to state your opinion (which is different from the opinions of 80% of the people who have posted in this thread), but ignoring those truthful 80% and yabbing on despite what's put in front of you does not do you any good and makes you lose your reputation...or at least the rep of this forum account of yours.

First of all, my opinion doesnt differ from 80% of the people that posted.
I think that anyone can be a Gaian, as long as they want to preserve a planets, and especially Gaias, natural biosphere.
But the Gaians were formed by Bretonian researchers, are based in Bretonia, and their main goal is to change something that is happening in Bretonian space (the destruction of GaiaS environment, in Edinburough, hence the name Gaian).
Therefore, not every person that wants to join the Gaian cause must be a Bretonian, but its natural to assume that most of them are Bretonians.

About me ignoring your arguments, I have given arguments that counter yours, but Marburg has not given any arguments that counter mine, and has preferred to use set phrases and personal insults instead of replying to what Im actually saying.
About my reputation, I dont really care so much what reputation I have with you, as long as you are more interested in furthering your point with this sort of tactic.

I recommend you start playing a Gaian, think of a background story, play with that story in mind, and play it GOOD. You'll get the grasp of it and I'm sure your views on the cultural & patriotic grasp will change.

Im not saying Gaians have to be overly patriotic or nationalistic, Im saying that Gaians have more ties to any other house through their background, due to their background and where they are situated. I see no reason for the original founders of the Gaians to sever all emotional ties with Bretonia or Bretonian culture because their citizenship has been revoked and they are considered outlaws in Bretonia. Of course your Gaian can if you want it that way, or your Gaian can come from another house. However, cultural heritage is not something you can get rid of easily even if you try very hard. Its not only about allegiance or what you try to be, its also about language, dialects, habbits, values, family ties, friends you had, and ways of thinking that you have, which are passed on from generation to generation. You cant get rid of those unless you have something to replace it.

A very good example for all the fuss about pertaining original culture: AMERICA. The colonists came from other countries, yet does the majority of today's Americans pertain the original culture of their ancestors who moved there long ago? I beg to differ.

America is not a good example to compare to Gaians. Americans left their countries to start a new life elsewhere. They didnt do it to preserve nature or to push a political agenda in their home nations, not in the least. Furthermore (but its really beside the point because the two are totally different), what we call American culture is very similar to that of the English, Germans, Irish and other large groups that formed the USA. The culture is a direct derivative of it. From the perspective of an Arab or African, they are almost identical, or what is called western civilization. Many people completely gave up their original culture, but it was because they assimilated into the large already existing culture. Their culture wouldnt have changed so quickly if they werent forced to adapt to the dominant culture, it didnt change by itself. And a lot of Americans actually do practice the culture and heritage of their forefathers, in great diversity, in many ways.

If you were to compare the situation of American settlers its more comparable to Zoners. They leave houses to look for better fortune in the wild, unlike the Gaians who want to preserve the wild.

Gaians are a small eco-terrorist faction originating and based in Bretonia, not a large group of refugees or settlers or soldiers of fortune like the first Americans (or the Zoners). You might want to RP yours like that, but its not in any way what the original faction was about.

* The original Gaians were largely BRETONIAN roots, (a fragment of them could have been from other houses, you know, students studying and scientists working abroad)
* The original Gaians, as all the others that followed, had their citizenships revoked because of being eco-terrorists and enemies of the Crown

Agreed. But having your citizenship revoked doesnt change your cultural heritage.

* Gaians born on stations have NO ties to the Bretonian government and no grasp of Bretonian culture besize what their parents/grandparents had told them

No direct ties to the government obviously, but you cant really not have a grasp of Bretonian culture unless they were severed from their parents and grown up in a totally different already existing culture. And by culture I mean language and way of thinking, not love of nature and hate of pollution or what their parents tell them about the government.

* Gaians from a nationality point of view are MULTINATIONAL - many in their ranks are Kusarians, former Corsairs, etc etc.

Also agreed. But the vast majority are of Bretonian descent.

So no, we are not Bretonian. We are Gaian.

That would be if Gaia was a nation. I realize you want to turn it into one, but in Freelancer its not a nation but a group of eco-terrorists with environmentalist goals. That doesnt match the requirements for being a nation or culture. You can always call it that, but to me it wont be much different than a hippie claiming he is not British or German or American but part of the flower children nation. To me they are still British/German/American in the core, even if they are trying to be something else.

[jammi]

Question related to Gaian diplomacy, as opposed to national heritage: Are Gaians allied to the FA and Hogsha through the Corsairs, or just because they're in bed with Kusari (ironic given I'm led to believe that Kusari has just as much going on (if not more) than Bretonia, terraforming-wise).

Question related to Gaian activity, as opposed to diplomacy: i) What happened to the idea that Gaians had - for the most part - degenerated into thieves and pirates as opposed to ideological extremists? Well, kinda ties into the previous (and next question), seeing as less ideological Gaians would give a good incentive for a Corsair alliance (and thus Kusari unlawful alliance, seeing as we're going in for Outcast/Corsair powerblocs, in which all components are allied:dry:).

ii) Do the Gaians have Bretonian popular support? As in, does the average Bretonian citizen decide they support their cause, with a rallying cry of 'Gaians is a pretty cool guy. eh fights for Kusari and doesn't afraid of anything'?

iii) Are they fighting for Bretonian ecology (as they were), or Sirius-wide ecology? Meaning, are they fighting for further clean-up operations in Leeds (lolwar) and New London, with future protection of Gaia? O-or, are they fighting to cripple Planetform et al where-ever they can and nobble interstellar heavy industry?

Question related to Gaian national heritage as opposed to any other stuff: Do you consider the Gaians to be drawing most of their manpower internally from rabbit-breeding, or from outside recruitment from the Green Front and Cambridge? Also, how much stock do you place by player characters, who will purposefully attempt to be new, different and innovative often leading to "male GC, Blood Dragons from Liberty, BAF officers from Rheinland"?

so like the bretonians deployed a faction like the QCP to weaken the enemy lines from within - kusari has extended a hand to the gaians to do practicly the same. - the difference is ... QCP are foreign, gaians are native - the result is meant to be similar though.

QCP is under direct control of the bret goverment - and so they enjoy the selection of bretonian gear. gaians are of course not under control of anyone - so they don t use kusari gear - BUT ... and thats the point of it...

Point Un: Since when were the Gaians the Kusari equivalent of privateers? I can't think of any reference whatsoever from ingame to even remotely support that conclusion, sans a shaky alliance to the FA and Hogsha - which implies a connection to the Kusari underworld - not Kusari proper.

As a matter of a fact, those alliances probably only exists thanks to Igiss sitting back and wondering what factions he could give to the Corsairs in order to balance the way the Outcasts were outnumbering them alliances-wse (as well as the love of interlinking everyone inside those powerblocs). Plus having Kusari using the Gaians as their own impromptu privateers removes all and any reason for the FA and Hogsha to be there, seeing as that's their excuse too.

Point Deux: The QCP are In Exile for a reason. They're not under direct control of the government. They were held at arms length with one eye closed back when they were still in favour, then left to their own devices. Now, the Gov't has thrown them out, turned their back on them and currently has its fingers in its ears going 'lalala, I can't hear any privateers'. Plus there's the promise of a slap and jail sentence if any pilots of the QCP get caught by their fellow Bretonians.

EDIT: Sorry for what I've just realised is an incredibly unnecessary and hostile overtone to the above post. :(

EDIT AFTERTHOUGHT: Are you talking 'Bretonian' from a political or cultural standpoint? I may not agree with a Liberal Democrat and Conservative coalition government, but I'm still English, type thing. I'll go look for the classical definition of patriotism.

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[tansytansey]

Not every Gaian is the same. That would just be boring. My Gaian is patriotic Bretonian, and won't attack any BAF forces, but she won't fight the KNF either since the Gaians need their neutrality to stay alive.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Marburg]

@ pimp- Problem is, not everything you typed in needs a reply cause it's just a simple difference of opinion. I'll give you a few though.

One, yes you were nazi'ing...it's clear that you have enough command of the English language to be able to overlook minor mistypes & spelling errors & still understand the point of something said given the context of the surrounding words. To point them out claiming that minor boo boos change the entire context of a post is just nit-picky.

Now, beyond that, let me get to it then.

Regardless of a persons ancestral bloodline, a persons identity is created by the environment they were born into. As I said before, I'm Irish by blood, historical ties & general appearance (hell, even my real name is Irish) but I am not Irish in any way beyond those things. I am a product of my environment & my environment is vastly different from the land of my forefathers.

That said, Gaian stations are not Bretonian property. They are Gaian property populated by Gaians, be they station-born or transplants from somewhere else. Being a Gaian is not a day job. They can't go flying around doing their thing & then go home to the wife & kids on any Bretonian held property. They go home to a Gaian station, & I'm saying that 77 years of isolation away from the root of their origins would result in Gaians having developed an offshoot culture of their own by now that would have an effect on every Gaian member regardless of their point of origin.

Yes, it's difficult to play out a sense of historical gaian pride on the server, but I will continue to try & give people an inspiration to think of their characters as something more than just a basic, shallow, spaceborne, greenpeace/hippie faction game filler as most tend to do.

If someone has a better idea on how to give the gaians more depth, I'm all ears, but staying stuck in a loop of shallow vanilla thinking just ain't good enough...disco is long past vanilla freelancer & using it as an argument to justify continued faction stagnation is just silly in my view.

The Gaians are STILL wide open for development, yet so far, the majority haven't explored & developed much beyond the filler the gaians were originally created as.

but I do love it when I see people trying different things cause we ARE out there

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[The_Scarlet_Pimpernel]

When you said this:

Gaians are not 'Bretonian' anymore, they simply originated & are based there...discuss


You are invited to say your piece.

There are many who believe that just because the Gaians are based in Bretonia they have to act & look like Bretonians...why is that?

Once a person joins the Gaians, they effectively renounce their citizenship & I've no clue why people would assume that a Gaian would feel any obligation of patriotism to a gov't that would sooner see them dead than look at 'em.

I have volumes of reasons to think that Gaians are simply Gaians, but go on...bring on the talk

I can (& will probably make walls of text being specific) but an easy way to explain my stance is that imo, a Gaian that sides with bretonia is akin to an american colonist that sides with britian 70 years after the revolution & winning their independence.

is thinking that any group anywhere should feel any love or obligation to a Gov't strictly based on a common ethnicity.

& the the resulting offspring would know absolutely nothing about what it would feel like to be anything other than a Gaian...everything they know of Bretonian culture would be learned as an outsider to it.

Anyhoo, the point is, there is no reason why the Gaians should be pidgeonholed into such shallow views.

it sounded that you have a problem with people RPing their Gaians as Bretonians, calling it shallow and all. If you really love do love it when people do different things, there was no need discredit people who dont make their Gaian not absolutely hate every aspect of Bretonia and everyone in it. There is no need for a Bretonian Gaian to be shallow, whether you make your Gaian a doped up hippie or think and outline all the reasons a Bretonian researchers would have to turn to terrorism is entirely up to the player, and the vanilla lore is in no way constraining by not making them a gaian nation (dont see why that is less shallow either) by default. You can RP like that if you want to, just dont insult people who dont.

@ pimp- Problem is, not everything you typed in needs a reply cause it's just a simple difference of opinion. I'll give you a few though.

You asked peoples opinion on

Once a person joins the Gaians, they effectively renounce their citizenship & I've no clue why people would assume that a Gaian would feel any obligation of patriotism to a gov't that would sooner see them dead than look at 'em.

When I replied that patriotism is not about loving your government, its about loving your nation, and gave examples about Iranian exiles, exiles from the communist block, Americans who disapprove of Obama or Bush, you indeed didnt have to reply, but you did reply that my logic and the examples were laughable.

Maybe you didnt make the connection with your previous question, maybe you did but had nothing better to reply to it, or maybe you misunderstand that not agreeing with your government (or your government not agreeing with you) doesnt automatically make you unpatriotic. Maybe thats how people in your surroundings see it, you tend to hear that opinion a lot from certain people when is comes to American war policies.

Regardless of a persons ancestral bloodline, a persons identity is created by the environment they were born into. As I said before, I'm Irish by blood, historical ties & general appearance (hell, even my real name is Irish) but I am not Irish in any way beyond those things. I am a product of my environment & my environment is vastly different from the land of my forefathers.

That said, Gaian stations are not Bretonian property. They are Gaian property populated by Gaians, be they station-born or transplants from somewhere else. Being a Gaian is not a day job. They can't go flying around doing their thing & then go home to the wife & kids on any Bretonian held property. They go home to a Gaian station, & I'm saying that 77 years of isolation away from the root of their origins would result in Gaians having developed an offshoot culture of their own by now that would have an effect on every Gaian member regardless of their point of origin.

You are an American now because your forefathers assimilated into an already large existent culture, one that started from Europeans 500 years ago and which was subjected to many other factors (other cultures, ethnicities, environments) apart from your Irish forefathers. If your forefathers moved to a desert island just off the Irish coast 77 years ago (illegally or legally), you would certainly be more Irish than you are now. Even if your forefathers rejected Irland as a whole, and not just how it treats sheep.

If the station was totally isolated for 77 years, they would hardly have survived. It would have been impossible to survive without support and interaction with other Bretonians. Its not like they were living on planet Gaia and support themselves in isolation. They dont have to sneak into Kusari during war time to get supplies, they just need a freelancer or smuggler or sympathizer or a fake ID to get them. And the most likely contacts are other Bretonians, since they are in Bretonia. The most realistic scenario however (and most effective way for eco-terrorists to operate) would be, like it is for most illegal organisations, that they live and work in Bretonia without their Im a terrorist cap, shirt, and IDs on, and only use them when they do Gaian operations from their secret base. I know. Laughable, isnt it?
Either way, even if they were isolated from Bretonia and had a no Bretonians recruitment policy, they wouldnt have changed culture as fast as your gramps moving to America and adopting the already existing culture.
Offshoot culture or subculture yes, but not one that is so different from their roots that you wouldnt call them Bretonians anymore.

Yes, it's difficult to play out a sense of historical gaian pride on the server, but I will continue to try & give people an inspiration to think of their characters as something more than just a basic, shallow, spaceborne, greenpeace/hippie faction game filler as most tend to do.

Gaian pride?
Like a nationalistic pride for their own faction? Why you would want to do that is your business I guess, but it would kind of turn them into something totally different than what they were in vanilla. And I dont see any necessity to do that. Again, how shallow you make your character is up to you, but in my opinion

If someone has a better idea on how to give the gaians more depth, I'm all ears, but staying stuck in a loop of shallow vanilla thinking just ain't good enough...disco is long past vanilla freelancer & using it as an argument to justify continued faction stagnation is just silly in my view.

I have an idea. Give them depth by giving them psychological depth and justify their thinking, how they would operate realistically.
Making a Gaian Pride nationalist faction frankly wont do it for me.

[Marburg]

We really are just spinning our wheels & having a pissing contest at this point, so let me keep it simple.

If I had a nickel for every time that I've stated over the years things akin to "I don't wanna step on people's toes that want to play their gaians vanilla-style" I'd not have to work for a living.

When I started to think outside the box & began to RP 'Gaian Natives' it was the start of something unlike anyone has done before & I continue to seed that RP concept in all that I do. It may seem like I'm crapping on peoples vanilla ideas when I make threads like these, but it just seems that way to people that don't think there are other options to explore.

You, for example seem to on the surface, limit your imagination to vanilla as it were a bible of some sort. Trust me, it's not.

The point of threads like these is to try & get people to RP a shallow filler faction (which the Gaians were made to be) with more depth. I never demand in any way that they follow my ideas, but I encourage it cause I'm argueably the biggest gaian cheerleader this community has ever seen.

Question: Do you play a Gaian yourself Pimp?

You ever try to break a mold with 'im?

Let me tell ya, it's extremely difficult when you work for a living all the while understanding that many, many people can't be bothered to read extensive RP background of a minor faction with little going for it vanilla-wise.

Can you say that you have such an understanding of your character that you know everything about his/her environment up to such mundane day to day things such as the structure of the stations air reclamation system or the ways to lessen cost of his/her monthly electric bill?

It may sound boring, but it's anything but shallow:P

most of the rest I could reply to is just back & forth urine spray 'tween the two of us, but I'm willing to yap about it in PM if you so wish

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[The_Scarlet_Pimpernel]

If I had a nickel for every time that I've stated over the years things akin to "I don't wanna step on people's toes that want to play their gaians vanilla-style" I'd not have to work for a living.

Lets see

Gaians are not 'Bretonian' anymore,

You say Gaians are not Bretonian anymore, and dont say not all Gaians are Bretonians or not all Gaians feel as Bretonian.

Thats asking people who RP as Bretonian Gaians (which is vanilla, I think we agree) to stop RPing as Bretonians and adopt your vision of Gaians. Its not asking for them to accept it that you RP according to your vision, its telling other people that Gaians are no longer as in vanilla, they can now no longer consider themselves Bretonians or side with Bretonians.

You justify this with:

I can (& will probably make walls of text being specific) but an easy way to explain my stance is that imo, a Gaian that sides with bretonia is akin to an american colonist that sides with britian 70 years after the revolution & winning their independence.

Americans may have started in Europe, but they are not european anymore ie- Gaians are Gaians, not bretonian

Here, you say that a Gaian who considers himself Bretonian or siding with Bretonia is acting like some kind of traitor, and use USA vs Britain for comparison. Again your are not merely justifying your own feelings, you are making the statement general for all Gaians.

I already commented on your comparison with the USA, so you know that apart form the fact that you are using an antidote er anecdote (;)lil joke, not meant to be "nazi'ing" but reminding you of something you wanted to say about anecdotes ) from a quite different situation which I think is not really a good comparison, you are also applying this as a standard to all Gaians, not just yours.

Don't misunderstand Magoo...I'm not trying to dictate to anyone how to play their Gaian I just want people to say their piece & invite logical reasons why they would support a hostile government

You would have earned a nickel here. But maybe you actually were stepping on other peoples toes in the above quotes, even if you say you dont want to.

Your second invitation asking for people opinion is really friendly. However, when I made comparisons with situations of political dissent between individuals and their governments (again I would like to point out that the question of Gaians protecting Gaias environment is an internal Bretonian political issue), instead of the American colonization and independence (neither of which is anywhere near the goal of the Gaians, for Gaia), you reaction was not very friendly, but rather rude.

You, for example seem to on the surface, limit your imagination to vanilla as it were a bible of some sort. Trust me, it's not.

Not a bible, but a guideline and base for discovery RP. I dont ask that nothing new is added, nor that people cant introduce new things in their RP, but what you are doing is asking people to change a factions RP according to your ideas that Gaians can somehow be compared to uhm the history of your own country? Come on man

The point of threads like these is to try & get people to RP a shallow filler faction (which the Gaians were made to be) with more depth. I never demand in any way that they follow my ideas, but I encourage it cause I'm argueably the biggest gaian cheerleader this community has ever seen.

Question: Do you play a Gaian yourself Pimp?

You ever try to break a mold with 'im?

Let me tell ya, it's extremely difficult when you work for a living all the while understanding that many, many people can't be bothered to read extensive RP background of a minor faction with little going for it vanilla-wise.

I had a Gaian Cambridge university dropout for a while, but I killed her and stripped her ship for cash because I wanted to spend more time elsewhere.
Telling you about how much detail my characters have and whether I know their electricity bill and whether Im a big cheerleader or not would indeed be a pissing contest, and its not really on topic either.

Can you say that you have such an understanding of your character that you know everything about his/her environment up to such mundane day to day things such as the structure of the stations air reclamation system or the ways to lessen cost of his/her monthly electric bill?

Ok, maybe Ill just tell you that my Xenos mom used to reduce his oxygen to make him stop crying and to save oxygen for his 11 brothers and sisters in their mobile home at the trailer park in Tau 45 when he was a baby.

Generally, I have never felt that vanilla RP forced you to make shallow characters or restrained you much. If anything did that, its players who want to force their personal ideas of RP onto others.
When those ideas are inconsistent with vanilla, not really logical, and arent even defended properly with arguments but rather are pushed forward with Im the faction boss, deal with it and go troll in flood kiddo, its particularly annoying.

most of the rest I could reply to is just back & forth urine spray 'tween the two of us, but I'm willing to yap about it in PM if you so wish

Actually, answering to most of the rest here would have been more pertinent to the topic than most of you post.
In particular
-if you still stand by your comparison of Gaians to Americans, and what are your arguments to counter my arguments.
-If you still stand by that most Gaians have really been isolated on their station, and not lived partly in Bretonia under fake identities, keeping there terrorist activities secret from authorities, and using their base as a secret hideout and weapons stash, instead of living in that rock with their families. I understand that yours did. But most or even all of them? It would seem logical that the largest wave of sympathizers would come from Cambridge universitires, and it would be easy for them to organize assistance, fake IDs, and resources without openly siding with outlaws.
-If you still think its impossible for someone to support and cherish their nation and culture, even if the government was ruthless towards the environment and you fought against it. You keep applying patriotism onto government, as if it was identical to culture and nation.

You say you could reply to that, but somehow you never did although I agree that you could have done it a long time ago, instead of stuff that really... really looked urine splatter, as you put it. I dont see why exactly that part in particular should be in pm, since it would have been the only on topic part.