How a player faction excludes a characteristic of the NPC faction

[Laowai]

In the last couple of months I have been less active in game concerning this stuff. However, I have been watching and listening in all the skype chats im in and paying attention to what has been said on the forums.

I believe this "issue" is indicative of a crucial issue in discovery that is unresolved: How much of the storyline is player driven, and how much is dictated to the players. Is the the storyline a fixed structure that is set, monitored and driven by Igiss and the Dev team, or is it Dynamic and player driven.
Cannon opened a thread not so long ago about this.. and the general consensus from what I could read was that the player base here seems to feel the storyline should be partially player driven.
Im a Corsair player and have been for a few years, as a member of the Corsair council i am privy to the conversations et al.... So, as a player in this area, i know for a fact that for several years now, and i mean years in real life terms, not "sirius" time, Corsair players, TBH, Benitez, Sails... HAF, back to the OPG and indies have been involved in Role Play that was aimed at removing the idea of "starving Corsairs" from the storyline. As such, their take on this right now, is entirely valid, based on their own gameplay - they are correct, they dont need Zoner food supplies from Freeport 9.
There is also, a storyline precedent that does indeed add ammunition to the Corsair players making a claim on Freeport 9, i would also argue this should apply to Freeport 5 as well.
however.

Zoners however and reasonably, do not agree. Much of their argument against the Corsair players here is that - "You are supposed to be starving, and now you are acting this way, we arent giving you food, ergo, this is bad for you" - which the Corsair players are - based on the last couple of years of their slow, methodical Role play - ignoring.



Here is the issue. If the storyline is indeed meant to be player driven, then... unfortunately you all have to reap what you sow. In this context, Corsairs indeed do not need Zoner food, and Zoners have an issue right now.

This situation is being watched by the admin team - we are listening and heeding arguments from all sides - and this is not just limited to the shenanigans in the Omicrons, but also across the board. If the community consensus is that the storyline needs to be player driven. Then you all need to think about how you wish to go about that, because this current issue stems from exactly this: a player driven storyline.

The limits to which this will be allowed are still not determined and are undecided. As such, i say as a player and an admin - in this Grey area time it is a very good opportunity to prove that players can develop storyline and not have it degenerate into petty school yard bickering. This does not mean the end decision in this player driven/non player driven storyline will be decided by these actions - But if players can prove that they can responsibly and reasonably work through their storyline issues without chaos ensuing then it would lend very good support to the "player driven storyline cause".

Personally, the bickering on this issue and threads such as this one, are not lending a lot of support to that cause.

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[Linkus]

Oddly, I agree with Dab.

The Zoners have been backed into a corner by the Corsair's refusal that Zoner food is required and instead are relying on AFA/Hogosha/Samura/IND shipments.

What can a Zoner do when he has no food supply card left?
Considering that the Corsairs have repeatedly said that the Zoners are not needed by the Corsair Empire, there's not much choice left to the Zoners.

Interestingly, I'd love to see what would happen if the Zoners/Mollys/Hessians etc all started shooting down IND/Hogosha/Samura shipments.

I don't know about you but it's pretty hard to get those shipments through a very, very hostile border.


At this point I think it'll either be a hefty bribe from a Zoner source or playing hardball that will finish this war.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[lousal]

I believe this "issue" is indicative of a crucial issue in discovery that is unresolved: How much of the storyline is player driven, and how much is dictated to the players.

Just to compare two player driven roleplay settings:

1. Zoners have established the ZA and according rules mostly reflected in the NZF regulations. The Sails were never really content with it around Freeport 9. The Core perhaps never at Freeport 11. It is hard to tell though how much was mere roleplay and how much of was disapproval of Zoner RP. We have no evaluable information on that difference.

2. The Corsairs were meant to have a weakness, and it their barren planet which makes them depending on food deliveries. The balance around Gamma is like that "Sairs cannot kill Zoners, because they need their food, while Zoners cannot starve the Corsairs, because before they'd actually starve they'd kill every Zoner. It's called symbiosis." Now, this important setting mostly imposed by lore must be maintained, or the Corsairs would not have weaknesses anymore. The recent motions of some Corsair players tried to defeat this weakness. It's called powergaming, Gentlemen.

Now, where is the point of avoiding weaknesses of a character class? Sorry to tell it frankly, but especially this is no roleplay anymore. Impersonation of characters has to encompass weaknesses.

The roleplay I have seen from Corsair players recently, especially by those who are permanently fueling an escalation between Zoners and Corsairs is avoiding any weaknesses. According to these Corsairs
... do not have a problem to obtain food in the Edge Worlds
... do not have too many wars already, so a war with Zoners would cut them completely off, and probably defeat them in the long run

Now, if we're talking about player driven storylines which do not adhere to the general necessity of balance, I hope there's nothing more to say about it, right?

[Ceoran]

Of the entire Corsair vs Zoner mess, the Corsair's claims to have solved their food problem, and the Zoner's claims to be able to hold off the entirety of the Corsair navy are the only parts I disagree with. There is no lore that supports either claim. Any faction that, in lore, has a supply problem can easily make a bunch of transports or hire another faction to send them goods, but that doesn't mean it fits the roleplay. I, personally, think Samura going through the Omicrons with transports laden with food to send to Crete is plain silly. The government may be a Samura majority, but not the entirety of it, nor would the populace support Samura sending food to Corsair pirates. This is something BHG Core pulled, saying they had no supply issues when in lore, they very much did. I disagree with both.

I'm not sure whether that sentence about the BHG is still in connection with Samura or just the next comparison, but I'd like to point out that the first Samura|- shipments to Crete were delivered in December 09 while that BHG supply issue has, at least to my very own awareness, arisen at a later date.
However, we'll have to re-look at that relation come .86 since one of the initial justifications for supplying them was to strengthen their efforts in southern Bretonia, weakening Bretonia even further, which obviously will turn invalid with the end of the war.

*read it above yourself*

Truth been told, the longer this whole issue lasts, the less confidence I have in giving the players even a slight control over the storyline and the more I'm in favour of a 100% Igiss-controlled story. As it seems, more freedom equals more stubbornness to push for once own goals, which equals more ooRP grudges.

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My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-

Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.

[Mannock]

Laowai with all the respect I deserve as a player and person, honestly I think you're wrong. As Corsair Zoner first and as currently, only a faction that has been and continues to attempt to end the problem of food in Crete: Benitez. The Sails, the faction formerly known as OPG, have never done anything so named Empire Corsair except creating internal strife and armed conflicts with other factions (HAF, for example, treated too harshly by Admins), The Brotherhood simply has sought to maintain their dominant faction status (totally laudable, but contribute nothing to the group) and independents, but notable exceptions, have not done anything.

I've been, I am and I will be pro Corsair (as Spanish perhaps I am more attracted to them by the Outcasts, but it's my personal choice), but ingame, this has been stupid in the end to claim the possession of something Zoner implicitly recognized. Then we have all made mistakes, but mistakes is in our nature, which for me is perfect (imperfect would be something without mistakes and follow a written manual.)

The only thing I hope is that someone explain how the Corsairs will be facing a new war against one of the richest factions of Sirius (disunited, but with a large and unknown potential) without weakening other fronts.

The excuse of food for this war would not be valid if you You might have worked to eliminate hunger in Crete. The group disappeared just create a disaster, was stirring **** for a while and then never again was heard of them. And everyone seems logical that acting.

Zoners apply deterrent measures to stop the fiery Corsair is considered an act of war. Zoners forms are diplomatic pressure but not with war. When diplomatic measures fail (also in large part our fault for our disunity and "betrayal" of some groups and individuals), but still maintained open channels with various factions Corsairs, there is only one exit (not the Corsairs have left us another) war.

The general idea is, as Corsair shot Zoner, this is legitimate ("because I say so" and it is, why not?, only neutral not friendly), you can not call my enemies and impose penalties ("because I say so too") and if you or your friends, allies or who want to help you shoot me you're the aggressor ("surprise, so I say").

In short, I've had good RPing this situation but even I have never found sense of this. Nobody in their right mind would start a new war (with 6 or 7 open) and at the same time cutting their supply lines to the rest of Sirius. If someone has done, please I beg you enlighten me with your wisdom.

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[Ceoran]

Interestingly, I'd love to see what would happen if the Zoners/Mollys/Hessians etc all started shooting down IND/Hogosha/Samura shipments

Not entirely sure about whom the IND has deals with, but for the others: Mollys are encouraged to attack the Kusari shipments who are heading through their ZoI, noone would care about that. Zoners however... well, if they attack the Hogos it wouldn't be that much of an issue, but if they dare to lay hand on Samura they should better hand over FP 6 and never be seen in Kusari again (remember, Kusari doesn't like the gaijins very much. If we get the reason to kick some out and take over FP6, Deshima or Roppongi, we won't hesitate)

2. The Corsairs were meant to have a weakness, and it their barren planet which makes them depending on food deliveries. The balance around Gamma is like that "Sairs cannot kill Zoners, because they need their food, while Zoners cannot starve the Corsairs, because before they'd actually starve they'd kill every Zoner. It's called symbiosis." Now, this important setting mostly imposed by lore must be maintained, or the Corsairs would not have weaknesses anymore.<strike> The recent motions of some Corsair players tried to defeat this weakness. It's called powergaming, Gentlemen.</strike>

you are aware you won't get your message delivered if you are offending the corsairs in it?

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My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-

Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.

[casero]

Interestingly, I'd love to see what would happen if the Zoners/Mollys/Hessians etc all started shooting down IND/Hogosha/Samura shipments.

Mollys already shoot Samura in Bretonia, why would be mollys in the sigmas and Omicrons?

Hessians, they can shoot samura already, I don't see a reason why not.

Zoners, they would risk relations with Kusari's government by doing that. This is why they put a bounty on food transports. And in fact, There was a zoner who shot down a samura transport, an independent zoner, luckyly, this has not happened again.

[Dab]

I'm not sure whether that sentence about the BHG is still in connection with Samura or just the next comparison, but I'd like to point out that the first Samura|- shipments to Crete were delivered in December 09 while that BHG supply issue has, at least to my very own awareness, arisen at a later date.
However, we'll have to re-look at that relation come .86 since one of the initial justifications for supplying them was to strengthen their efforts in southern Bretonia, weakening Bretonia even further, which obviously will turn invalid with the end of the war.

The Samura and BHG comments were totally separate. I was talking about Samura in conjunction with Corsairs only. I know Samura's relations and reasons for giving food to Corsairs, but my issue is the government's view and the Kusari populace's view on the affair. The government, run mostly by Samura, may turn a blind eye, but the population of Kusari definitely won't. And keeping something like this secret simply isn't possible.

you are aware you won't get your message delivered if you are offending the corsairs in it?

That's true, but I don't think he was intending to offend. In fact, his last sentence in that post was very accurate.

Wikipedia.org Definition;
Powergaming is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as storytelling, atmosphere, camaraderie, and fun.

What the Corsairs are doing right now in regards to their food issue is a very clear example of powerplaying/powergaming. They have strengths as a faction, as well as weaknesses. Every faction in Disco has a built-in weakness in the lore. The Corsair players are attempting to say the Corsair's main weakness, food shortages, no longer exists. There is a reason such a thing hasn't been entered into the lore by the dev team.. Because it completely disrupts the balance to do so. If you remove one weakness, you must add another, this is a necessary step in any storyline. The Corsairs have removed a weakness, but not added one to keep the balance. They also have the problem of fighting on many fronts; Delta, Eta, Sigmas, Omegas, Cambridge. By going into all-out war with the Zoners, they weaken their fronts elsewhere. The Corsair playerbase has so far ignored this issue.

This situation will not be resolved, and will only result in a lack of faith by the admin and/or dev team towards player-driven storyline or lore, if people continue to ignore problems, threats, and weaknesses to their faction. This is true for more than just the people playing Corsairs. However, the Corsairs are the ones with the widest range of disregard for factional balance.

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[tansytansey]

Zoners, they would risk relations with Kusari's government by doing that.

What would happen if a Zoner shot down a Samura Transport bound for Crete? Kusari would complain that the Zoners were shooting their transports supplying pirates? Oh how outstanding would that be to watch on the news board.

What message would that send to the other Houses? That Kusari is supporting Corsairs by defending transports that openly feed a group of pirates that constantly pillage and raid Bretonia and Rheinland.

No, I don't think Kusari would respond to Zoners shooting Samura transports bound for Crete at all. It would be far too detrimental to their status as a lawful house to openly support the supply of Corsairs.

Kusari would be more likely to distance themselves from Samura transports travelling to Crete.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[lousal]

you are aware you won't get your message delivered if you are offending the corsairs in it?

*sighs*

If we're not able to discuss some facts openly and making them taboos just because somethings do not sound comfortable the root of this roleplaying problem cannot be touched. I've used the following reasoning: "Removing designed and/or potential weaknesses when impersonating a character or a group of characters is empowering their roles, which is certainly meant to achieve a more powerful position, so it is actually called powergaming."

Why should this be perceived as an insult? Is there any lie within? I am sure there isn't as I am pretty sure that the recent events were not really thought through which is actually proving your own observation that the community cannot rely on an unrestricted approach to write just some undirected storyline.