The "job" of the military

[Blodo]

That depends Agmen. How much trouble do you consider rage threads from pirated traders on the forum to be?:D

[Wolfspirit]

I will not break my faction's role play because of OORP aspects.

I have of course answers for you but this is the main part. Whatever other rheinlanders want you wont change. Miners want protection is an "OORP aspect" for you. Guess this is what need to do. be flexible a little bit more, coz not we are for you but military for us normally. And if you think everything with RM is OK you dont need to do more then dont do, We solve our problems alone. Not a new thing how we cant count for RM because of "RP reasons". Sadly currently form of RM not work, but do not change:).

Note - have SS I guess when RM say "dont care" but Im not home so not sure, ask [RM-V] Diana Whoever. It wasnt so important to me coz me and our member get this about all day, in different form, why RM dont come into Omegas.

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[Vito]

I'll try to answer all the questions raised here, but don't hate if I miss something.

First of all, Wolfsprint said almost everything there was to say and I completely agree with him.

The assumed lack of support from the military.

No, the lack of support from the governmental forces, military and police

Yet, how can we express our support so everyone is happy and they feel supported by their military?

You can't. Nobody is asking for 24/7 surveillance, but I haven't seen a RM/RFP ship in Omega 11 for ages. And yes, Omega 11 is the problem, not Omega 7. Most lawfuls don't enter O11 because they don't want to spend a few credits on repairs and bots

People look at the militaries as free escort/protection and those militaries definitely don't act against that assumption if they have nothing better to do indeed.

You are right, that's RFP's job

In-RP, corporations make the profit for the House/military, but in reality they don't. There is no tax or anything similar, so the cash of the military is made by the military. Spending the military's real cash to protect their non-real enterprise partners is sorta iffy,

You should have thought about that when you applied for the RM. That is your job, to protect your people, not to pew pew with LN in Hamburg all day

I don't see why you keep bringing up this Wraith thing either, we gave you those ships already

You gave us 2(two) Wraiths. What can 2 Wraiths do against a pack of Odins? Not much. Not to mention they are both shared ships, so once one dies nobody else can log in again for 4 hours, right? The Eagle melts in Omega 11 faster than the RHA can kill it

It's not that we don't want to 'mess' with the RHA. It's more like that we consider their point of view important as well since they are players, not our enemies, just like the DHC is. That aspect does not need to reflect our view in role play or canon though and since we all are what I think of as responsible leaders, we can make a difference between role play and OOC.
You got that right, and I know losing can be demotivating. If you feel demotivated OORP, ask the RHA to cease their constant attacks since they are getting annoying and don't let your members develop. Breaking your RP because of OORP aspects is not the solution.

Doesn't the RM have a deal with the Unioners? Or the Bretonians with the Mollys? Isn't Samura supporting the Corsairs?
DHC's RP has always been the same: greedy, heartless corporate bastards who would sell their own mother for some credits. Our operations were suffering and we had to do something

If they refuse to do so, invest all that money into hiring mercenaries/bounty hunters and as I said, schedule your mining operations. Decide that you'd go mining every day at say, 10 o'clock, then all the mercenaries and the RM would know when you're in space, when you can expect an attack and when they have to go and protect you.

We did that and it didn't work. Btw, if we schedule our mining operations would you do the same and be there with some patrols? Mining takes time. We get there and 3 Odins and 2 Thor's show up. What then? F1 and wait for them to go away?

And if that seriously is so much of a problem, I ask back: What did the DHC do for the RM, ever? Why are we expected to be your babysitters when you invest your profit into supporting terrorism instead of your military forces?

Because that is YOUR JOB, that is why you applied for RM. Or at least that should be the reason. all you do is sit around Hamburg waiting for the LN co come and pew pew


Now about the reasons behind the DHC-RHA deal. I don't see how that is OORP. The RHA grew to a size which doesn't allow us to operate at full capacity (and yes, that is the government'€™s fault in RP and we blame them for that) and we had to do something. We were already paying the pirates every day AND losing a lot of ships and cargo every day. We did the math and decided is more profitable and safe to do it this way, because we don't risk loosing ships. In RP a single tanker is worth 100 mils, so 200 mils per months is a great deal.

Also this:

Doesn't the RM have a deal with the Unioners? Or the Bretonians with the Mollys? Isn't Samura supporting the Corsairs?

Edit: I forgot something. Look at all the other house militaries. when a pack of their house criminals show up they all go and fight them, wheter is LN, BAF or KNF. You see RHA and think: "oh, that's not our problem, they're only killing miners, let's have another drink on Hamburg

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[Wuselkobold]

...
Note - have SS I guess when RM say "dont care" but Im not home so not sure, ask [RM-V] Diana Whoever. It wasnt so important to me coz me and our member get this about all day, in different form, why RM dont come into Omegas.

Honestly, if I was that particular RM pilot in connie I'd answer the same. Do you really expect him to go all the way back to the Omegas from Liberty only to find that the pirate is already gone? Or do you honestly expect every RM member to have an account with 5 Wraiths parked in 5 different Systems? People are here to have fun, not to act as your goddamn babysitters.
Besides, [RM-V] is a specialised squad specifically tasked with attacking Liberty, they don't act in house, safe for Hamburg-defense as far as I know.
And no, I'm neither in RM nor in RHA.
Omega 7 is a Borderworld/Independent System and back in Vanilla the coorperations did their own thing there, completely without military support (in fact, the only military forces you ever saw out of House Systems were there to wage war or in an hopeles attempt to capture Trend).

Omega-11 doesn't have RM NPC patrols either. And yes, if you need more protection, you might as well ask/blame the RFP as well, not only the RM.
Vito, if you don't like Eagles, use Ravens Talons, Stingers, or just ask for more Wraiths, since if you don't, nobody can know that you need more of them.

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A wild goose chase (RP story)

[Vito]

Vito, if you don't like Eagles, use Ravens Talons, Stingers, or just ask for more Wraiths, since if you don't, nobody can know that you need more of them.

Raven Talon is IMG, so we can't use them. Yes, we got 2 or 3 Stingers/Wasupu's but they suck against the Odins. We asked for more Wraiths 2132452 times, but didn't got any

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[Sturmwind]

@Wolfspirit, seriously man. Get someone to translate what I said for you since either you misunderstood me entirely or stop assuming things I never said/think deliberately.

It's not that protecting miners is OORP. It's that methods you suggested me to employ that are OORP.

I won't F1 in fields and log every time something happens because it's OORP.
I won't log an entire fleet into the Omegas because it's OORP.

It's the abuse of game mechanics, something official factions (and preferably all players) don't do.

I won't be more flexible in that regard, since this is a game, though one with rules and common sense/courtesy.

Ask for something that's not throwing over the rules/principles we follow. Just because others play dirty, we won't.

@Vito, some of what you said, I elaborated later on. You should read the whole thread if you're wishing to make such an elaborated response.

Let's begin with this:

No, the lack of support from the governmental forces, military and police

You are right, that's RFP's job

I understand your point and it may have been incorrect of me to use the term 'military' instead of 'law enforcement agencies', but even though that lore-wise the Police is supposed to be handling issues, that is not really applicable in actuality exactly because of the factors you mentioned.

Despite that, if it would be the police watching over miners, my points still apply I believe, except that even the technology of the police is lower grade than that of the pirates.

Now, let's get to the quotes that that extract did not answer.

You can't. Nobody is asking for 24/7 surveillance, but I haven't seen a RM/RFP ship in Omega 11 for ages. And yes, Omega 11 is the problem, not Omega 7. Most lawfuls don't enter O11 because they don't want to spend a few credits on repairs and bots

False assumption #1.

We don't commonly enter Omega-11 because it formerly has not been on our patrol path due to the heavy Red Hessian activity therein. It's an RP thing that, if it's really that much of a problem, I am willing to change and include the system on our standard patrol path. But since in the past I don't know how long time I never received a distress call from Omega-11, how could I know it's an area that needs focus? Previous responses in this thread all endorse my point.

Now, you want more patrols to Omega-11? Okay.

You should have thought about that when you applied for the RM. That is your job, to protect your people, not to pew pew with LN in Hamburg all day

Because that is YOUR JOB, that is why you applied for RM. Or at least that should be the reason. all you do is sit around Hamburg waiting for the LN co come and pew pew

False assumption #2.

Personally, I can state that the RM is never idle. We even stopped watching over the embargo for months now, we patrol all the internal systems, with the Omegas in priority. The only thing that changed is that we integrated Bering and Hudson into our patrols, but removed Texas, so the chance of "pew pew" with Liberty is rather low.

Now, ask yourself what a military force should be doing. Should it be sitting in a mine watching over miners or countering a fleet of foreign invaders? Well, I think the latter is more of a priority, just observe a few real life examples.

As you said, it would be the RFP's job, but we still do it.

You gave us 2(two) Wraiths. What can 2 Wraiths do against a pack of Odins? Not much. Not to mention they are both shared ships, so once one dies nobody else can log in again for 4 hours, right? The Eagle melts in Omega 11 faster than the RHA can kill it

[...]

Raven Talon is IMG, so we can't use them. Yes, we got 2 or 3 Stingers/Wasupu's but they suck against the Odins. We asked for more Wraiths 2132452 times, but didn't got any

Nice exaggeration. Where exactly did you ask for more Wraiths that got turned down? I may consider it if you show me a few of those "2132452" requests.

Doesn't the RM have a deal with the Unioners? Or the Bretonians with the Mollys? Isn't Samura supporting the Corsairs?
DHC's RP has always been the same: greedy, heartless corporate bastards who would sell their own mother for some credits. Our operations were suffering and we had to do something

[...]

Now about the reasons behind the DHC-RHA deal. I don't see how that is OORP. The RHA grew to a size which doesn't allow us to operate at full capacity (and yes, that is the government’s fault in RP and we blame them for that) and we had to do something. We were already paying the pirates every day AND losing a lot of ships and cargo every day. We did the math and decided is more profitable and safe to do it this way, because we don't risk loosing ships. In RP a single tanker is worth 100 mils, so 200 mils per months is a great deal.

The RM has a deal with the Unioners? That's certainly news to me. About the rest, those are not exactly the under the desk deals made by arch enemies, but I can't say I approve of those either. As far as I'm concerned, lawfuls and unlawfuls should not be cooperating on anything but temporary terms.

About the DHC's deal itself: As I said in the original post, I won't opinionize it here. I'm simply trying to correct the reasons why it happened.

We did that and it didn't work. Btw, if we schedule our mining operations would you do the same and be there with some patrols? Mining takes time. We get there and 3 Odins and 2 Thor's show up. What then? F1 and wait for them to go away?

If you scheduled your mining operations already, why didn't you inform us of the schedule? Even though we all have other tasks to handle and I can't promise constant surveillance even in such a case, we would certainly try to give you all the aid we can if you actually schedule a mining op.

But as said before, hiring mercenaries instead of financing terrorism also is an alternative, with the schedule still in effect. With combined mercenary and governmental escort, I'm certain this problem would get ironed out more easily, even if only one entity can be present at a time.

Also this:
Edit: I forgot something. Look at all the other house militaries. when a pack of their house criminals show up they all go and fight them, wheter is LN, BAF or KNF. You see RHA and think: "oh, that's not our problem, they're only killing miners, let's have another drink on Hamburg

False assumption #3.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that remark. I think I'll just say that you should have saved it, since it's entirely invalid and merely an emotional outburst forged together from internal assumptions. I'd suggest you stop relying on such assumptions if you have no evidence to back it up with, especially if you contradicted yourself with saying that it would not be our job.

Do your research before making such decisions and stop pointing fingers, especially if it's not justified.

[Talesin]

Greetings,

Yet, how can we express our support so everyone is happy and they feel supported by their military? Please, I'm all ears on ideas.

long time ago, even long before the mining-nerv i used to mine in T23.

The CR did a great job in exactly this madder you are talking of.
As far as i got it, they were doing RP-patrols through the whole system, even the unpopulated areas, and everytime they passed they delivered some nice interaction by asking how the current status was asking about recent unlawful activities and so on.
When you were mining and every 20 mins a wing of 3 CR passed, asking how the status what, one felt very protected.

Now, the CR has only very few systems to cover so of course they can show more presence.

Well, my experiences with the House Militaries aren't that great.
If i met them somewhere they usually asked to stop to scan for contraband, seeing me more as potential criminal than as law-abiding citizen that's maybe in need of protection. Once they scanned me, i mostly got a simple "You're clear to go." - and off they were again.

Of course not every Military Players act like this, but this is the main interaction i have with those.

I think it would be a whole different atmosphere, if those players would instead ask about recent events in the area where i am coming from, or would be warning about recent pirate activities in the area i am heading to, while they scan for contraband.


Just an idea about the topic.


Regards,
Talesin

Edit:

You can't. Nobody is asking for 24/7 surveillance, but I haven't seen a RM/RFP ship in Omega 11 for ages. And yes, Omega 11 is the problem, not Omega 7. Most lawfuls don't enter O11 because they don't want to spend a few credits on repairs and bots

Erm...
We [The RHA] increased our mining effords in O11 lately, exspecially since the [RF] joined our cause, since they are former miners.
So therefore there is an increased Hessian activity in this system, heck we consider it as one of our Core-/Homesystems, being directly connected with O54.
Have you ever entered it through the Stuttgard Jumphole?
It's desolate, full of asteroids and rocks which deliver a great chance for an ambush, you even need navigation buoys to lead you to Solarius - also the Sun is constantly burning everything in this system which is why Solarius had to be build in the "shadow" of that Planet in order not to get burned (and Freital inside an enormous asteroid).

I guess the RM could hardly efford to send ships there, and exspecially they can't guarantee for savety.
In Omega 7 the Daunmanns started hiring Mercs, so why don't they start doing so in O11?

(Also i've seen many Daunmanns trying to mine in O11 at the "high-drops"-Field like 120k from Solaris station and 6k from the O54 Jumphole...)

Regards,
Talesin

[Vito]

@The Major: I won't get into an argument with you, simply because the last time we did you went balistik and Dab had to remove a lot of posts.

False assumption #1.

We don't commonly enter Omega-11 because it formerly has not been on our patrol path due to the heavy Red Hessian activity therein. It's an RP thing that, if it's really that much of a problem, I am willing to change and include the system on our standard patrol path. But since in the past I don't know how long time I never received a distress call from Omega-11, how could I know it's an area that needs focus? Previous responses in this thread all endorse my point.

Now, you want more patrols to Omega-11? Okay.

Don't tell me you didn't know about this problem. Just because we didn't go Q_Q'ing on the forums doesn't mean we didn't ask for your help, over and over again

False assumption #2.

Personally, I can state that the RM is never idle. We even stopped watching over the embargo for months now, we patrol all the internal systems, with the Omegas in priority. The only thing that changed is that we integrated Bering and Hudson into our patrols, but removed Texas, so the chance of "pew pew" with Liberty is rather low.

Now, ask yourself what a military force should be doing. Should it be sitting in a mine watching over miners or countering a fleet of foreign invaders? Well, I think the latter is more of a priority, just observe a few real life examples.

As you said, it would be the RFP's job, but we still do it.

No, you do not patrol the Omegas and yes, you are in Hamburg 80% of the time.

We are talking about the RHA, the military force of the 3rd most powerfull unlawful faction in Sirius, after the Corsairs and Outcasts, so yes, it should be one of the military's priorities. You won't be just babysitting miners, the Hessians want to throw off the governament and they are fighting agaist every lawful faction in Rheinland

Nice exaggeration. Where exactly did you ask for more Wraiths that got turned down? I may consider it if you show me a few of those "2132452" requests.

Again, don't tell me we didn't ask for Wraiths just because there aren't 2132452 forum threads about it. We asked, you said no, we solved our problem.

The RM has a deal with the Unioners? That's certainly news to me. About the rest, those are not exactly the under the desk deals made by arch enemies, but I can't say I approve of those either. As far as I'm concerned, lawfuls and unlawfuls should not be cooperating on anything but temporary terms.

Ok, you don't aprove, we do, it's no problem. If you read the "deal" you would see it is temporary, it was made just for one month. Maybe it will be extended, maybe not. Is it not an allience neither, we will simply pay the RHA and ignore eachother

But as said before, hiring mercenaries instead of financing terrorism also is an alternative, with the schedule still in effect. With combined mercenary and governmental escort, I'm certain this problem would get ironed out more easily, even if only one entity can be present at a time.

We tried that and it didn't work

False assumption #3.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that remark. I think I'll just say that you should have saved it, since it's entirely invalid and merely an emotional outburst forged together from internal assumptions. I'd suggest you stop relying on such assumptions if you have no evidence to back it up with, especially if you contradicted yourself with saying that it would not be our job.

Do your research before making such decisions and stop pointing fingers, especially if it's not justified.

No, emotions have nothing to do with it. Also read my first sentence again. As for the evidence, we all do play the game, remember? Nobody pointed a finger at the RM, never. We simply explained why we did that deal, nothing more.

Now, if someone still wasts to talk about the RHA-DHC deal we have a feedback thread and all comments are welcomed

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[Shryke]

Simply put, you don't have to please everyone.

You don't have to think of ways to protect traders and miners at all times.

You don't need to have constant surveillance of every single field and lane.

It isn't your fault miners are being robbed, it's the miners fault for mining in the obvious spot without any sort of protection. Nothing stops miners from working in groups. Ever see what a couple Hegemons with Type 4's can do to a bomber? It isn't pretty. Why not have someone sitting ahead of the miners with a CD to buy the miners enough time to run away and get off plane?

We all play the game to have fun. And if that fun is being taken away because Skype/feedback/PM/whatever is bombarded with people who are complaining that they died, it stops being fun. When it stops being fun it becomes work, and I don't need a second job. People are going to get pirated, you can't stop that. If you are able to, what's the point of being a pirate? To be cannon fodder?

Ignore the Q_Q, keep playing as you are.

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[Coral Reaver]

Actually, I encountered pretty much your situation yesterday, a large group of Kusari were in Dublin, with little chance to repel them by myself, so I logged a battleship with 5 solaris, I didn't run in guns blazing and RP'd the situation as realistically as possible 'stationary trade protection' and all that jibber jabber, thereafter BMM started calling me incompetent. I waited until they started attacking Miners and simply tailed them, I got into range of the miners and they simply ran away, I did this until they left the system.

I was one of those KPT guys. I actually agree, you did your job well and acted as a troublesome factor for us to continue our operation in that system. In the end we were forced to leave.