Notice: Bretonia and Kusari factions

[pchwang]

We werent always playing like saints, but neither did our foes always. I suggest we try to make a line after this and set up regular events, where both sides would have chance to bring enough forces. All problems like ganks, basehugging and the resulting trolling and flaming on the forums would be instantly resolved. As for myself, all I can say is that whenever I am in charge, I will do my best to make both sides happy with the fight.

I totally agree with you - you aren't the only ones doing it, and I'm sure you've suffered your end of the ganks as well.

My most recent encounter with a basehugging ship was a repairship(4000 regens) cruising around a Freeport while being refed by a battleship and a destroyer, both of which we either forced to dock or killed. The real question here is why the heck they just didn't dock and leave?

Are you honestly telling me that when you bring a force of that strength to a system with only a few BAF fighters on, you're really looking for a fair fight? I retort that you should not whine about basehugging if you're out to gank, both are equally reprehensible.

I like how you didn't really read my post:

I bolded the important parts.

The BAF played by the books and sat on the Hood, realizing that we greatly outnumbered them. That wasn't really an issue.

I don't have a problem with camping bases prior to an engagement.

What annoyed me, however, was that after we were engaged, multiple fighters retreated to the stationary battleship and sat on the Hood instead of docking.

It was your choice to engage us.

As for this:

A second problem is that oftentimes we have to deal with large groups and indeed entire factions of pvp-whores who aren't going to wait around for the arduous process of us trying to summon reinforcements.

Well, like I said earlier, you could always stay docked, PM one of the other guys and tell them that you aren't getting any more reinforcements, or just camp the base.

The enemy isn't going to kill you by mortar sniping from a distance and or by doing suicide runs heading towards the enemy cap trying to attack you. That just doesn't work.

As for the numbers on the corsair side, I for one felt it was justified since I was 95% positive that when we got there, we'd be ganked by multiple capital ships and a swarm of fighters, and I'm sure that others in group with me held the same sentiment, that if you want to have a fighting chance in Bretonia, you need to bring large enough numbers to overwhelm the dreaded "BAF powergank."

We wanted a fighting chance as well, one that didn't involve getting swarmed by 3 battleships, a mob of fighters and bombers, and an equally large mob of gunboats.

I'm sorry if this wasn't what was going to happen - but do realize that this is what people typically assume will happen when they fly to Bretonia.

EDIT: Again, I'm not trying to provoke or flame anyone, but I'm sure that some of the content of this post, especially the parts where I make assumptions about what the BAF will and would do are sure to offend some people.

This is no individual or even a group of people's fault. I'm simply being honest, and telling you what a good number of people want to say, but have their own personal reasons for not saying them.

---

[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<

Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?

[BaconSoda]

I can honestly say I agree with Elgato a lot. If I enter Bretonia, I'm pretty much prepared to either face a force which is 3x my size or leave really quickly. Pretty much, I have almost no fun there, have resigned myself to not really playing there that often (or at least not often with combat ships), and I'm happy to see a change (if it really happens). I've been on a lot of Skype calls with people who feel the same way, too. Really, it's not that fun. Good to see it change if it is. That's nice.

But on the other hand, I feel like any kind of faction which has PvP rules isn't really thinking of RP first and is focused instead on the PvP aspect of the game first. That's kind of disconcerting, but that's okay, I'd like to have fun again.

---

[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[Blighter]

Gentlemen[color=#000000], I propose we say[color=#000000]:

YES

Have some:

CAKE

And then proceed to do a:

CUDDLING MARATHON

Before everyone goes:

D'AWWW



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[Eichann Rush]

The enemy isn't going to kill you by mortar sniping from a distance and or by doing suicide runs heading towards the enemy cap trying to attack you. That just doesn't work.

It really doesn't work. At all.

As for the numbers on the corsair side, I for one felt it was justified since I was 95% positive that when we got there, we'd be ganked by multiple capital ships and a swarm of fighters, and I'm sure that others in group with me held the same sentiment, that if you want to have a fighting chance in Bretonia, you need to bring large enough numbers to overwhelm the dreaded "BAF powergank."

We wanted a fighting chance as well, one that didn't involve getting swarmed by 3 battleships, a mob of fighters and bombers, and an equally large mob of gunboats.

I'm sorry if this wasn't what was going to happen - but do realize that this is what people typically assume will happen when they fly to Bretonia.

This is truth. As a Molly, i get about ten to fifteen minutes to have fun before the dreaded BAF/indie powergank shows up and all the miners run to the Essex. Often they arrive in the middle of a heated battle against a cap8 hege or a escort fighter.
And since the Mollies never have the numbers to combat this, well, we just have to run around it. It's exhilirating when you win, but since you mostly lose, it sucks.

Also, i expect all [MR] Tagged ships to follow this. Not that it's really an issue, there's three of us, and our e-peens are so big we dont need to run. :cool:

---

[Daedric]

As for the numbers on the corsair side, I for one felt it was justified since I was 95% positive that when we got there, we'd be ganked by multiple capital ships and a swarm of fighters, and I'm sure that others in group with me held the same sentiment, that if you want to have a fighting chance in Bretonia, you need to bring large enough numbers to overwhelm the dreaded "BAF powergank."

This is the core of the problem. For both sides.

You bring a large force to counter a gank, and in the process you end up ganking them. They then use that same mentality and in the future ensure they have superior numbers at all times, thus ganking you.

If you want to bring enough forces to stop any gank you think might happen, fine do it. Just control your force if you don't encounter that gank you were prepared for. Tell some of your extra men to wait in reserve instead of letting everyone attack thinking that a million BAF caps will undock and gank you. Let your extras enter the fray as BAF adds people to its side.

The problem is two sided here. Both sides are justifying having overwhelming numbers to counter a gank from the other side. If you don't want it done to you, don't do it to them. If it happens to you, go do something else. Its not like getting killed in this game hurts or anything. Let the faction leader of the other side know, and don't return the favor. By returning the favor you only worsening the problem.

---

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[Hastings]

This is the core of the problem. For both sides.

You bring a large force to counter a gank, and in the process you end up ganking them. They then use that same mentality and in the future ensure they have superior numbers at all times, thus ganking you.

If you want to bring enough forces to stop any gank you think might happen, fine do it. Just control your force if you don't encounter that gank you were prepared for. Tell some of your extra men to wait in reserve instead of letting everyone attack thinking that a million BAF caps will undock and gank you. Let your extras enter the fray as BAF adds people to its side.

The problem is two sided here. Both sides are justifying having overwhelming numbers to counter a gank from the other side. If you don't want it done to you, don't do it to them. If it happens to you, go do something else. Its not like getting killed in this game hurts or anything. Let the faction leader of the other side know, and don't return the favor. By returning the favor you only worsening the problem.

And the problem with that, as always, is being able to control indies (if such a thing exists).

Like I said, both sides have to meet each other halfway rather than putting the burden on one group, since both sides are at fault.

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[beunt]

Well it's good to see this thread is going on with reasonable opinions. It's how the feedback thread should be but this thread is just as good.

Among the many replies posted here one from ElgatoDiablo caugt my attention so I'd like to start here. About base hugging :

This is nowhere near a new issue.

I consider here three types of base huging : using the base as a cover before the fight starts, using it as a weapon during the fight proper, and using it as a cover after retreat but not docking. The players who come to fight the BAF are aware of the three problems for long, but I realized that the first type of base huging is an issue to some only yesterday. That's why I said it's new - at least to me -, and that's also what I meant by cultural difference. In your case Elgato you said you don't mind, and in the case of the corsairs who raided Dublin yesterday they actually minded about it. In the end they raged and missile spammed the bretonian forces at the Essex because of that. But until we had a talk with Monte the BAF didn't percieved what went wrong with those particular corsairs, and if not for this talk it would still consider they had been ganked for free that night.

To extend the matter further here are a few common - although untold - principles among the BAF| proper - I can't talk for all independants yet, that's why I'd like them to talk here too :

• player A wants to pvp player B doesn't mean player B wants to pvp player A,
  
• a player who cheap shoot player while RPing will not be treated fairly in turn,
  
• if you can't match the ennemy force get more until you do
  

Of course those items are seen as valid for the BAF and may be seen as invalid by some other people. For instance the "in war time cheap shooting is RP" is also perfectly valid, though opposed to the BAF principles.

I stress again on the fact that those principles aren't written anywhere, and are just what I believe to be at the core of the behavior of the average BAF. A short story to illustrate that : recently Where did it ran ? payed a visit to Bretonia in a Kusari naval-force id'ed gunboat. The BAF RPed, in turn he cheap shoted two BAF, and in turn he got purposedly ganked. What happened there ? On the BAF side I've seen the application of the first guideline, then the second, and I assume Where did it ran ?'s guideline where "war time, cheap shot if necessary" and "war time, face the risk to be ganked" (I assume that because he didn't flame our feedback channel afterward).

Neither him, neither the BAF were going "olololol", however this contradiction among their respective guidelines could only lead the fight to a bitter end. Another example concerns the aforementioned corsairs : the corsairs think "come with what you have and we'll scale down the fight", while the BAF think "let's get more to scale the fight up". Both are aiming at the same goal but in opposite directions !

As long as those guidelines remain hidden, improvements in the interactions will be harder to achieve. I'm not saying it'll be the ultimate solution, but at least when another player did something you didn't appreciate, understanding the rationale behind his actions will ease the pain and dampen the rampant resents that grow between factions over the time. That's why I believe the posters in this thread should dump there here, and comparing them will help us to make progress.

To conclude, the following items are valid for me, but I can't tell for anyone else yet, and aren't guidelines but rather the product of my personal experience :

• Do not shoot the squad leader of the other time because he's the one who can adjust the balance if need be - like denying access to passing by allied ships who wants a share of an already unfair fight,
  
• Announce in local chat who is taking part to the battle is a good way to not interrupt RP with oorp pms and let the opponent know you're ready and what he'll be facing.
  

Those late items aren't guidelines specific to any faction, but they'd rather be related to the interactions between factions. These are just examples and might not be approved later on in favor of something else. But I find them useful because the original agreement only mentioned the contextual setup - place and ships -, while the items just above emphasize on mutual comprehension, and furthermore they also can be practised in training sessions since they are context-independant.

--------------

Well of course the talks above are nice but the actual battleground is way more ugly. The ganks are an even more well known problem and is heavily addressed there. I had not intention to discuss it since it's already debatted pretty much everywhere but in case a reader is interested I'm opening this parenthesis.

The ganks are actually the biggest workout the BAF have on the go. I won't repeat here the measures Dieter recently established to forcibly kick the troublemakers in the balls since you must already be aware of them. I'd rather list here my view from inside Bretonia regarding what is wrong :

• currently the BAF roster is young and some aren't mature enough.Some can't analyse the fight, command and manage the stress of being shot at the same time. Some others can't accept to loose and the BAF being the less skilled military faction doesn't help.
  
• the BAF fights home only and is frequently offered help spontaneously by ships passing by, among them some are uncontrolable unfortunately. This is even more problematic when it stacks with the item just above.
  
• the BAF only fights home and can only recieve raids. Once I've seen 15 (real) BAF| online and the only thing we could do was to drop a few mortars at Stokes station. So much fun... Frustrated BAF is frustrated.
  
• Dublin turns people mad, for real. I had a few bret buddies (BAF and non BAFs) who in the end logged in not for fun but for revenge only - and in the end they burned out. No need to tell you more about that, you all know Dublin, just imagine how it is to live there and call this place "home".
  

All of these items lead to ganks, separatly or together, and hopefully not all apply to any member of the BAF/Armed Forces factions. The general picture is however a mix of inexperience, of being parasited and being aggressed in a narrowed ZOI. That's of course no excuses - playing the loosing side is a choice in the first place -, those are just the main challenges the BAF have to overcome. The current measures that Dieter established aim to remove the parasites - both in the BAF and more generally in the armed forces-based factions - and if some BAF or else whine at getting pwned well they'll have either to train either to grow up, and to stay cool even if we'll get sucked in Dublin days after days as usual, because it's a choice every member made. To help with that I'm interested to know the experience of various posters here if they had similar reccurent problems - keeping indies under controls for instance - and possibly tricks that work.


Now there is something the others factions can do to improve that too : stop flaming my faction damnit ! Like I said the BAF became touchy over the time because of the generally unhealthy environment - disrespect in RP and OORP - and flaming the BAF more will just bring more NO U pointless discussions. Like Elgato said the reputation grown out of proportion. There are ganks everywhere, the BAF know how it is to be ganked and humiliated on the top of that. Even if the problem is prominent in Bretonia, the BAF is not the whole Bretonia either. This reputation is highly toxic and contagious.

Once I've seen 2 BAF| vs 3 pirates. The BAF won. The pirates then went "BAF way : no gank, no win." Wtf seriously, this gank motto thing became a brainless and petty excuse to deny us our legit victories (yes, we have some). The BAF is filled with good fellows and for a large part they doesn't deserve that. So instead of flames, process feedbacks with names of the parasites, that in turn will earn them the taser flog. It's way more informative than infuriating posts aimed at the faction as a whole, which leave us no way to zero on who messed up.

--------------

Now back to my main point. As I've said there are as many "untold" guidelines as there are players/factions : huging bases or not, sneaky engage or not etc. Although this discussion was originally intended to the Bret-Kusari engagement rules, the corsairs, SCRA, gaians and else protagonists of the Bretonian microcosm are welcomed to input here. I'm not looking for quantitatives rules of thumbs like how many ships class X you need to take on 1 ship class Y, I'm rather interested with the personal mindset about pvp that no one never state because they think they're obvious to anyone. What is okay, what would you agree on, what would you not do, what makes you rage etc, in the most basic form possible. Just to go further than the words and have a glimpse of what everyone have in mind when they fly the outer reach of the Essex, and see where tradeoffs can be mades.

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[pchwang]

I consider here three types of base huging : using the base as a cover before the fight starts, using it as a weapon during the fight proper, and using it as a cover after retreat but not docking. The players who come to fight the BAF are aware of the three problems for long, but I realized that the first type of base huging is an issue to some only yesterday. That's why I said it's new - at least to me -, and that's also what I meant by cultural difference. In your case Elgato you said you don't mind, and in the case of the corsairs who raided Dublin yesterday they actually minded about it. In the end they raged and missile spammed the bretonian forces at the Essex because of that. But until we had a talk with Monte the BAF didn't percieved what went wrong with those particular corsairs, and if not for this talk it would still consider they had been ganked for free that night.

I only quoted this section of the post since what I have to say in response has to do with this mostly. I really appreciate what you're trying to do, Beunt, and I think this will work out well.

To clarify the entire basehugging thing and my views(which I feel can be said to be representative of a good number of people) on it, it's this:

- If you're hugging a base before the fight starts, that's no different than just staying docked. People can't force you to pvp, and as a result, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.

- If you're using the base as a weapon, then yes, that is a problem, since stationary capitals have unlimited energy and cannot be destroyed. It's a bit like putting in the "unlimited ammo/god-mode" hack into a game, only in multiplayer. I seriously suggest anyone who has not tried to attempt to charge a hostile stationary capital ship and attempt to do serious damage to a stationary target without taking incredible damage. You won't succeed.

- If you leave the protection radius of the stationary capital ship, and you engage me in combat, that's fine. But, if I beat you, in the sense that I fight you to the point where you do not want to fight anymore, and you run to the stationary capital...

...Don't sit next to it, DOCK.

Basically, you just lost a pvp engagement. In any other scenario, be it a regular base, I would be chasing you around it shooting at you until you docked. But, with a stationary cap, that's impossible. Instead of docking, you sit outside it, and by doing so, either I must kill you in order to stay in the system, or, if I leave the stationary capital, I must leave the system - which is wrong, since I won the fight.

Of course, other alternatives, such as asking the person if you can stay, are fine and feasible, and should be pursued.

On the topic of the BAF's reputation, again, I will state that it is not my intention to flame or insult anyone in the faction or associated with it. What I'm telling you, if you do not know, or have not seen from some of the responses from the others, is that somehow, the BAF has managed to accrue a very negative reputation that no other House Military faction has.

I'm not 100% certain why this occurred, and can only speculate, which ultimately gets nowhere. But, what remains is the fact that there are quite a few people in your faction who don't seem to be fit for the responsibilities that being in a house military faction entails. Not only that, these people have created an atmosphere that has prevented people from joining. I know people with characters belonging to lawful groups in all the houses except for Bretonia, and these groups of people seem to be fairly consistent.

From my perspective, the only way to completely solve your problems is to very publicly hit the RESET button, or, in other words, kick everyone out of the faction except for the most important, and begin recruitment using different standards. It is very extreme and perhaps unnecessary, and most definitely not my call on whether to do it or not - this is Dieter's faction, and I, having no connection to it whatsoever, don't have a say in it. But, for me, and I am sure, for many others, it would restore a measure of confidence and set the BAF back at point 0.

Again, I am only a human with opinions that can be wrong or correct, depending on your ideas and thoughts. I'm simply offering what I believe, that does not make me right.

So far, I am very glad that we can have this conversation in a serious manner.

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[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: &lt;_&lt;

Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?

[beunt]

Little replies this time and no beliefs regarding pvp, except for the one below. Too bad but well, next time a thread is alive I shall put that in again:)

- If you leave the protection radius of the stationary capital ship, and you engage me in combat, that's fine. But, if I beat you, in the sense that I fight you to the point where you do not want to fight anymore, and you run to the stationary capital...

...Don't sit next to it, DOCK.

Yes, definitely. I've learned that my mates did that when I read your previous posts. I'm not proud of that... Of course they admitted their defeat regarding the rules but not quite regarding their self esteem. I think it is an example of not so good cultural difference and I believe I'd have made the same mistake. Either way, for the sake of good conduct or because of rage, docking is the best thing to do (or leaving the system). The point was addressed in the BAF skype channel, it'll probably need some time for the message to be spread and to fight off the flood in skypes that drows notices such as this.

I think I'll fly as an admiral again for some time now to ensure myself that those points are implemented on the ground. Please don't shoot me too much, I'm so bad at multitasking !

Now about resetting the faction roster :

From my perspective, the only way to completely solve your problems is to very publicly hit the RESET button, or, in other words, kick everyone out of the faction except for the most important, and begin recruitment using different standards. It is very extreme and perhaps unnecessary, and most definitely not my call on whether to do it or not - this is Dieter's faction, and I, having no connection to it whatsoever, don't have a say in it. But, for me, and I am sure, for many others, it would restore a measure of confidence and set the BAF back at point 0.

a situation calling for that would be so critical that the BAF would simply disappear instead I believe. We all have our flaws but we becames flight buddies over time and skyping around when not - rather common in a community -. Kicking everyone out would be a pain, I think the BAF wouldn't survive that. I'd rather leave the faction and play far from there, and let the matter in other hands.

Actually the most active players are new bloods (less than two months), kicking them out and enroll other new bloods will just be a waste of the efforts we've already placed in their training. However after the Ensign Cogs incident the recruitment roster is currently closed and it was decided we'll make them decent red coats before getting more to limit the amount of work.

I'm more worried about intermediate members and old guards like me showing the wrong examples, especially if it's an bad old habit. Hopefully the elders are supposed to be wiser and sensible. I hope they would understand if explained clearly and calmly (I sure would at least). But well, besides this be sure that a lolwutting Commander or above deserves flames even if I hate that, and believe me I'll go after him for the second round in my office.

So well, there won't be a BAF reset anytime soon, for human and logistical reasons, and even if we did the old legend of the BAF powegank will still survive among wicked minded people. We'll rather carry on with what we have, getting better bits after bits, anything but going for another round trip of shame. Not all of it was rigthfully deserved - I swear ! - but I won't be satisfied until I'm convinced we're done things 100% right.

I think we can summary the ganks, base hugging, and various griefs against the BAF with this simple message : "grow a pair". I'm gowing to print that in topic of the BAF skype channel.

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[guitarguy]

From my perspective, the only way to completely solve your problems is to very publicly hit the RESET button, or, in other words, kick everyone out of the faction except for the most important, and begin recruitment using different standards. It is very extreme and perhaps unnecessary, and most definitely not my call on whether to do it or not - this is Dieter's faction, and I, having no connection to it whatsoever, don't have a say in it. But, for me, and I am sure, for many others, it would restore a measure of confidence and set the BAF back at point 0.

I think I can address some of what you are saying. Dieter has always insisted on making the BAF| as open as possible for new players, and the tradition continued even when he wasn't in the faction. That is a characteristic of our faction; very open to new players. I'm not sure how that compares to other military factions, but that is the cause of some of the grief in Bretonian space.

Does that excuse the behavior of some of our members? No.

We are working to fix the problem(s) in our faction. However, it will always be an "open" faction, and there will always be issues and new players who don't understand the power and responsibility of being an official military faction member (I know I certainly didn't as an ensign), but how are they to learn without wearing the BAF| tag for awhile. I hope this gives some perspective.

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