Liberty Navy [LN] Feedback Thread

[Jihadjoe]

Omicron Supply Industries' Technology Grants

Official Player Factions

Group: Liberty Navy [LN]
Technology: Zoner weaponry

It is the result of some roleplay here regarding the zoners willingness to hand guns over to criminals, but not the lawful types. The result of it was the OSI granting us the ability to use zoner guns.

Opening it up to the [LN] membership makes a roleplay point. Unless of course you're saying that a guardian mounting fury photon blasters is in some way massively overpowered.

If you are trying to tell me that a Guardian with Fury 5's is overpowered, then please, tell me how this is the case. A medium VHF, which many find slightly sluggish for their taste, sporting a loadout of guns which deal less damage than vengeances at a lower projectile speed...

---

[Dab]

I kind of have to agree with Mjolnir as far as LN shouldn't be using Zoner tech goes. I don't care about the pvp reasons (because Zoner guns aren't really good enough to justify them as pvp guns). But for roleplay reasons, it is a bit too far for a house military to be using guns created by the Zoners. You're a nation's armed forces who have megacorporations from your own nation designing and building you your own line of guns. It'd be like a big slap to the face of Ageira/Detroit Munitions if you were to just up and decide to start supplementing their product with Zoner guns. It also just doesn't make sense that, as a house military, you'd be using a foreign, anti-government, group's weapons. Whether they supply them to pirates or not.

Pirates in the real world have gotten AK-47s.. You don't see the U.S. military demanding that they get their own. Instead they use U.S. company-manufactured and designed guns.

The Bretonia-Liberty gun exchange was pushing the line, this is going completely over. And I don't think that's a good thing.


EDIT: Quick thing I forgot. While I don't share the tone, I do share the opinion that it isn't really right for the largest official faction to be doing something that is questionable such as this. We try to encourage proper roleplay and avoid abusing the system and this just seems too much like.. Abusing the system.

---

[Jihadjoe]

What is exactly is the "role play point" being made here?

Holding the Zoners to their neutral stance, while they have a base within Liberty space. I will point out we did not 'take' zoner guns. We were granted the tech allowance by a Zoner faction. I extend my thanks to them, and congratulate them on some rather smart diplomatic manuvering.


Dab, I don't know if you spotted this, but we have two ships currently using zoner manufactured guns. That is likely to turn into the stunning number of... *gasps* five. That's hardly widespread use. Each one of those people also has a fighter which is puretech, so to speak. The idea of using technology which has been made available to us through roleplay does not strike me as being particularly contentious.

---

[Jihadjoe]

What a lovely tone you have.

Aside from that, the act of using the guns offered to us by the OSI is simply to see what happens if we do. My expectation is that a pirate group will make a complaint to the OSI. How the OSI respond to that will make remarkable difference to how the group is regarded in roleplay by the liberty lawful community.

I will point out that we did not ask the zoners to give us guns. We asked them to stop arming criminals that shoot us. This was the outcome of that.

---

[Cond0r]

Pirates in the real world have gotten AK-47s.. You don't see the U.S. military demanding that they get their own. Instead they use U.S. company-manufactured and designed guns.

Really Dab, you're gonna bring the real world into this...really? How about we start discussing what else on Discovery balance isnt similar to the real world, you got a few weeks? If you cant come up with an argument that is more fitting to these "surroundings" then just dont say anything at all. Oh and for your information not only criminals use AK-47s, they are being used by numerous law upholding organisations, and special operatives. But you left that part out didnt you?

Personally I got nothing against the Liberty Navy using Zoner guns. Its not like every single pilot will use them, their combat effectiveness isnt that high, and since they are being used by most other people, I got no problem with a few guns being handed out to the Liberty Navy. Why cant you just be patient and see what comes from it, damn.

---

[17:23:05] Mini Me: pls
[17:23:06] Mini Me: gtfo

[Dab]

Sorry I couldnt read all of this. My spaceship is waiting outside, some pirates are attacking my house with AKs.

Its funny how people only compare this place to reality when it suits them, isnt it?

Aaaand, I do believe we're done here now. I'll let you get a few breathes in to try and gather a few last words while I walk away. Thank you, and come again.

Okay, you want some game-only issues?

Alright, here's some of the things I mentioned to Joe on Skype;

1.) Liberty just gave up any political leverage they had against the Zoners. Now if we ever try to bring up issues with them supplying pirates with weapons, they can just claim they give them to Liberty as well.

2.) Joe says this is to "test" the Zoners and see if they stick to neutrality. If they don't, it -might- be useful. If they do, it helps us not-at-all. I can guarantee, having been a Zoner heavily involved in politics, that they won't, as they are currently in a very favorable political situation. Now if the pirates or navy complain, all they have to do is say they are giving the weapons to both sides, and then neither side can do anything about it without giving up their own access.

3.) Eventually the LN will stop using the Zoner weapons because they are less useful. The pirates will continue using them. We will be back to the same situation we had before where pirates were using Zoner tech on lawfuls. Only now, there is nothing they can do to the Zoners to get them to stop giving those weapons to pirates.

4.) If the LN catch a Zoner delivering Furies to pirates, if they try to prevent him from doing so, they forfeit their own tech permissions. The Zoners can pull that tech away from the LN while keeping it for pirates, and not be breaking neutrality.

5.) This will create stress between other factions as well. Liberty Navy and Ageira/Detroit Munitions. Ageira designs the Vengeances and Magma Hammers and has a contract with the Navy to supply them. Part of the advertising for both companies (who are partners, one designs, the other builds) is that they are the sole providers of the Liberty Navy's weapons. Now the Liberty Navy is using weapons from other sources. That destroys the company's advertisements and may lead to a loss of business. Afterall, if the Liberty Navy doesn't consider them the best, why should other Liberty organizations? Note: The Liberty Navy may still consider them the best, but the connotation of seeing LN with Zoner weapons is that they don't. This is what others will see. This will sour relations between the Liberty Navy and its arms providers.

6.) A lot of people see this as shady RP. Whether it is or not doesn't matter, people's perceptions of it is what matters. This opens the door for people to point at this and say "Look, the largest official faction did shady RP to get tech, so can we!" This will lead to more abuse of the tech system, which is already a rather large problem, as Mjolnir mentioned earlier.

---

[Snoozzzer]

Love how that Zoner Q_Qery (meaning, rather amusing roleplaying over the masses of zoney turretted pirate gunboats). Nice to see the LN is not spamming Zoner gunboat turrets on their own ships in retaliation.

Also, if your faction is in need of more crap black market weaponry, do check out my Barragers.

---

[mjolnir]

Why does [LN] wants to use Zoner guns?

a) Because it makes [LN] roleplay better?
b) Because some people want to get any slight PvP advantage?

Furys are ok guns not too good, not too bad, fact is that they give LN ships something they don't have at the moment.

Zoner GB guns are simply better due to their "concentrated" firepower, this is a result of the first being intended for the 4 gun large Zoner GB and due to promises of "zoners only"

6.) A lot of people see this as shady RP. Whether it is or not doesn't matter, people's perceptions of it is what matters. This opens the door for people to point at this and say "Look, the largest official faction did shady RP to get tech, so can we!" This will lead to more abuse of the tech system, which is already a rather large problem, as Mjolnir mentioned earlier.

It's hard to keep track where this started but lately I do feel it's getting out of hand.
After BD fighters/Catamarans with Krakens/Coladas/Infernos were quite widespread in 4.84 Admins/Community would reduce this in the end of 4.84 and start of 4.85 to almost non-existent problem.

Now during last 3-4 months it's back again and even better...Scorpion gunboats with 8 Nomad turrets.... Corsair FA bombers, "Hogosha" Black Dragons everywhere in Bretonia, "Merc" Kusari Explorers with Zoner turrets.... and now [LN]. Last time [LN] tried this with using Bretonian splitters it was forbidden by admins, does this mean that now we(community) don't care about RP that much any more?

---

Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Jihadjoe]

Why does [LN] wants to use Zoner guns?

a) Because it makes [LN] roleplay better?
b) Because some people want to get any slight PvP advantage?

Furys are ok guns not too good, not too bad, fact is that they give LN ships something they don't have at the moment.

Zoner GB guns are simply better due to their "concentrated" firepower, this is a result of the first being intended for the 4 gun large Zoner GB and due to promises of "zoners only"
It's hard to keep track where this started but lately I do feel it's getting out of hand.
After BD fighters/Catamarans with Krakens/Coladas/Infernos were quite widespread in 4.84 Admins/Community would reduce this in the end of 4.84 and start of 4.85 to almost non-existent problem.

The Liberty Navy wants to use zoner guns for a very specific reason. That is to force the local (liberty) zoner population into maintaining it's neutrality. We have already forced the zoners into making their position definate and concrete, with an action (handing us the ability to use their guns) to back it up. Actually using the guns to shoot pirates allows us to see how they (the zoners) will react if these groups which have been supplied with zoner guns for a long time put pressure on the zoners. This is why were are using a limited and small number of zoner guns.

Furys tend towards the underpowered side of things, in my opinion.

Zoner gunboat turrets tend towards being overpowered. I know this because I get shot at by vast numbers of zoner turreted tridentes and kusari explorers. This is the reason I intend on using these turrets sparing, if at all. I may well strap a set onto my gunboat, and reserve it for the purpose of levelling the playing field with those pirates who flap around in zoner gunned tridentes.

The previous (over two years ago now) deal with the bretonians for the use of splitters was forbidden by the admin team on a fairly shaky principle, while many other groups were exchanging tech on a far more extreme/pvp-oriented level. For example the Corsairs giving Tizona del cids to the =CR=, when the two groups have little to no contact with one another, which was completely ignored by the admin team at the time.

Military groups from nations who have good diplomatic relations with each other often exchange military goods and equipment. This is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. Saying that it is bad roleplay to do so is a slightly odd idea.

---

[Panzer]

we ditched dem tizzies voluntarily and before .85-grade Q_Q even entered the dictionaries, Jo

(As much as I meh'd it:dry:)

And essentially yeah, with every H-boot flyer in the lolTaus/Dumblin bugging me about some zoner favors to grab those green-shooting turrets for reasons I can't even begin to care about?

People are either too used to the luxury of having a complete toolbox or not used to it enough.


In other words, I ain't buying it.




(Mentioning CR may have the following adverse side-effects - Panzer, Panzer, more Panzer and Panzer again. Followed by irritation, frustration and in extreme cases - Rage. Before mentioning CR consult the manual or your nearest psychiatrist)

---