Again, the creation of a Codes of Laws, via separate codes that contain the laws of a particular house throughout Sirius, is in my opinion of critical importance.
As my main character, enforcing the law is pertinent and I explain the laws, what section they are in, and what they mean during that process. However this is not always the case, people are misinformed, don't know what is happening, and many times get prosecuted unfairly by secondary fleet/primary fleets that don't know the laws of their house well. Furthermore, normal pilots don't know their legal standing, unless they read it on the forums; though even then they don't comprehend the meaning of it, as many laws are very old, vague and in serious need of reform.
The Codes of Laws 'commodity item' could be sold at major planets in that house, similar to that of the "Welcome to Liberty' document/commodity, and therefore pilots operating within that house or territory would have no excuse to say they do not know the law. For example: If you are a lawful in Liberty and trade alot, and want to make sure your business is legal, you can take with you everywhere you go the Liberty Legal Code. Lets say this trader also goes to Bretonia as he trades Luxury Goods, then the trader would also have the Bretonian Legal Code. This would make those breaking the law genuine criminals, and if those who still don't understand as clearly negligent. In my experience, a quite substantive amount of pilots who break the law do so not knowing the laws in that house.
I'm assuming it wouldn't be too hard to add a document in this version, or in the next version of Discovery. As said before it would need to be able to be updated without having to re-create the document. However, the first step that is needed would be legal reform of the laws before this could be done. To take the laws I know best, the Laws of Liberty, and the laws of the Embargo against Rheinland, alot of the time they don't reflect the current situation of Liberty, in some regards do not encompass the law as a whole, or are vague. These characteristics must vanish if a document is provided for each pilot to posses in said house.
I won't go into the details of the weaknesses of the law, but just to point out that in order to have pilots who understand the law, it needs to be clear, concise, articulate and recent so that each code is easy to read in the inventory, and is well formatted. I think that should be embarked upon before these are created, or if these can be updated then create them with the 'current' laws, and then when reformed update it.
If this could be done I think it'll benefit all lawful citizens of every house, and perhaps even non-lawfuls. I have the Laws of Liberty in print copy, but I think if each pilot needs to understand the law they should be able to by not having to alt+tab to read the laws if stopped by the police of that house, or to have a print copy like myself.
I believe this should be actively pursued and as such should start a momentum to see if its possible to get it happening. I would prefer this anyday over any item of equipment, due to its importance in Sirius as a whole.
Interesting thought. Might be also a nice addition to a /restart command. And even better if these items can be flhooked as it was said in the first thread about it (update issue!).
But if this doesn't get in, you (or someone else who can do this ^^) can provide a downloadable, printable version of the laws! Might be even better to read them instead of a "commodity" item in your cargo hold.
' Wrote:Interesting thought. Might be also a nice addition to a /restart command. And even better if these items can be flhooked as it was said in the first thread about it (update issue!).
But if this doesn't get in, you (or someone else who can do this ^^) can provide a downloadable, printable version of the laws! Might be even better to read them instead of a "commodity" item in your cargo hold.
I agree:)It'd be especially important though to buy it as then anybody can get it when needed/wanted. The downloadable laws sound good, but I think that comes back to the current problem - the fact that people need to read it. Having it downloadable/on the forum needs extra effort to read it outside of FL. As a commodity, one would hope that being individual documents for each code of law will make it possible, and that those people will read it in-game and be able to refer to it there. As LPI Vladimir Law, I doubt hardly any people who I directed here via pm actually came and read it.
I'm up for making it downloadable, in pdf format:)However this comes back to the problem of legal reform.
I agree. Its time the Law's be reformed and that Law Enforcement Pilots also should have easier accsess to the law data bases so they are informed all the time.
Thats right Dan!! I just hope somebody listens to the idea and we can start the process. However without sufficient support to do so, I don't think we will get there anytime soon:)
Being a new pilot to the LPI I can fully stand by the comment that the laws should be more easily accessible.
If they should be re-written? Perhaps, I don't know because I haven't been here that long.
Having the laws as cargo items also allows us to give these items to players who are committing a first time offense or infraction.
I do agree with you though Mystacx, the only problem I guess is how possible it is to be implemented, but moreover the willingness for it to be attributed in one way or another.
I would like to see more thoughts or ideas on this issue. I think its very important and does require the attention it deserves. There is too much confusion on the RP laws of each house, and I don't think simply saying to 'refer to the forums' can be the solution when clearly it hasn't worked thus far.
The laws change frequently enough that the in game commodity would be out of date unless an admin kept it up to date via Hook. I'm not sure how many of them can do that, nor if they have the time.
That plus the laws are already very accessible. The forum they are on doesn't require a user name and password to view. Not that I am against it, but they aren't as hard to find as made out to be. I also highly doubt they'd be updated so they'd cause more problems than they'd solve.
' Wrote:The laws change frequently enough that the in game commodity would be out of date unless an admin kept it up to date via Hook. I'm not sure how many of them can do that, nor if they have the time.
That plus the laws are already very accessible. The forum they are on doesn't require a user name and password to view. Not that I am against it, but they aren't as hard to find as made out to be. I also highly doubt they'd be updated so they'd cause more problems than they'd solve.
This was the conclusion that the previous thread came to. It's infeasible to update the commodities every time a house decides to place an embargo against another one, and then again when the embargo ends...
Then maybe just the RP laws and not the embargo's because yes, they are open to change. The laws however, are more closed and relatively permanent. However on the point of Embargo's, if one looks at the Liberty Embargo against Rheinland (http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37612) it has been the same since the date of issue (2009). I know that the laws of Liberty haven't been updated for a long time as far as I have been told (2008); however I can't speak for other houses as I operate mostly from Liberty, but looking at the Laws of Sirius thread it seems the same (the laws of most entities being 2008/2009, besides those of the Colonial Government). To talk about that I know intimately, in Liberty the 3 year use of the same laws clearly isn't something that has to be changed often. It is something that remains static throughout time.
For example you could have a document that promotes visiting the forums for the embargo, in the Liberty Laws it states the laws than states there is an embargo in place against Rheinland, and a link is done. A similar fashion for embargo's could be done ingame: "Here are the laws (important), but there are embargo's and you need to go here: < >."
I do agree that the forums are easily accessible and yes, agree that saying they haven't read it isn't an excuse.
But if this was so alot of people would know the laws. In my experiences hardly anyone does besides seasoned traders, I have to, as my LPI character, quote the laws to pilots and then they go 'oh but I didn't know', or 'I didn't know there were laws'. I think that experience shows us it being easily accessible on the forums hasn't helped in people understanding or knowing the laws that apply to them. Maybe that person is Roleplaying that they didn't know them - its possible. However there is little connection ingame between the "Laws of Liberty" and what is available ingame itself. Hence, its hard to RP to use the laws when somebody claims to not know the laws, the only thing you can say "//go to the forums and read the laws", then shoot at them or fine them.
Therefore, Law enforcement in consequence have to spend most of the time, if they do their job properly and don't destroy the vessel, have to quote the laws and explain it to them. This is why it would be good if it could be updated, but any copy of the RP law that can be ingame would be more than beneficial. Beneficial so as that it can be known more, but moreover be included in Roleplay, which is the purpose of such laws. Policing isn't just about enforcing the laws, but Role Playing around them. Having such a document would make sense ingame, instead of telling people IRP "Go to your neurelnet" then pm them to go to the forums..
In my experience as an LPI officer an ingame document of a houses' law would prevent most crimes, but on a universal approach provide them a document, like the welcome one, that would encourage them to the forums if they want to know more. Most crimes are misdemeanour's but the pilot doesn't know its illegal. For example: a pilot goes into Liberty with a Rheinland vessel and get shot down/fined/apprehended, or an independent trader trades contraband not knowing it is contraband in that house. Can they be punished? Yes. Is it fair? Yes, hell they broke the law. Should they have the right to know? Yes. But should they be forced to exit the realm of RP to understand it? I don't think so.
Edit:
I had an idea: Maybe Embargo's can be added to the News broadcasts instead of having a separate commodity? Therefore, a trader would see the News Broadcast and then know about the Embargo. It would make sense after all. If a few days later the Embargo is lifted, all they have to do is refer to the news network. Just a thought on what to do if such embargo's are changed.
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