' Wrote:I believe I was referring to the your use of the word "stupid'. Don't care much for calling people bias either, but I'm not going to step in for that one.
Fair enough, there was a bit of discrepancy with your last post which quotes biased as part of the "bad things".
Either way, my apologies, I have no need to insult Curious whatsoever, just to point out the flaw in his logic. Will avoid it in future highlighting.
' Wrote:No-one cares about how much or how little Corsair are or are not starving on Crete or any other rock they live in or on.
Lou brought up the issue of your perceptions about our RP and ours about yours in the previous pages in a rather lengthy post, I was merely asserting that the rather long-held accusations from the Omicroners of the Corsairs changing our RP and lore just to facilitate the killing of Omicroners are false.
Quote:This thread does nothing. All you will get is the usual Zoner players getting their voices in about how things are fine, OSI- players taking potshots, Corsair and BHG players laughing in our face and criticising us instead of actually offering an OoRP compromise or anything of the like and Dab platforming.
This is what I was talking about when I mentioned your whining, it is, I believe, one of the main reasons why the Omicroners above all other Zoners are disliked. This paranoid fear and dislike of other players, which leads to you doing some rather silly things, makes you look petty and incapable of interacting with others in a normal manner, and does not help the image of Zoners in general.
Now, I've already said what I think you can do to improve your image, namely trying to get along with others, and not expecting others to do as you wish, basically, try being diplomatic, attempting to be neutral will help as well. And being neutral doesn't simply mean not treating Corsairs as hostile, it also means not getting to intimate with the Order and others, because that will in turn lead to hostility, and as such defeats the purpose of neutrality and you'll end up back where you started.
And another thing, learn to take criticism. I mean, this thread began fine, and I'm certain Jinx knew when writing the OP that there would be criticism involved, and yet by the third or fourth page, Omicroner members had begun arguing about how Corsairs are to blame for their problems and whatnot, and that criticism is just an attempt to troll by biased players. Even the most biased and hostile comments will have some grain of factuality, and if you'd just take them on board as opposed to immediately curling up inside your shell as it were, you'd find people would quickly become less hostile, and your image would improve.
Also, from the last quote, you mentioned that you expect other factions to offer compromise, why exactly would you expect any faction to offer compromise when they have no need to, and all you have given out is hostility and whining? What I'm trying to say is; Do not expect others to help you to change, if you want to to change, do it yourselves, and if others voluntarily aid you, then great, but never expect them to.
' Wrote:Lou brought up the issue of your perceptions about our RP and ours about yours in the previous pages in a rather lengthy post, I was merely asserting that the rather long-held accusations from the Omicroners of the Corsairs changing our RP and lore just to facilitate the killing of Omicroners are false.
This is what I was talking about when I mentioned your whining, it is, I believe, one of the main reasons why the Omicroners above all other Zoners are disliked. This paranoid fear and dislike of other players, which leads to you doing some rather silly things, makes you look petty and incapable of interacting with others in a normal manner, and does not help the image of Zoners in general.
Now, I've already said what I think you can do to improve your image, namely trying to get along with others, and not expecting others to do as you wish, basically, try being diplomatic, attempting to be neutral will help as well. And being neutral doesn't simply mean not treating Corsairs as hostile, it also means not getting to intimate with the Order and others, because that will in turn lead to hostility, and as such defeats the purpose of neutrality and you'll end up back where you started.
And another thing, learn to take criticism. I mean, this thread began fine, and I'm certain Jinx knew when writing the OP that there would be criticism involved, and yet by the third or fourth page, Omicroner members had begun arguing about how Corsairs are to blame for their problems and whatnot, and that criticism is just an attempt to troll by biased players. Even the most biased and hostile comments will have some grain of factuality, and if you'd just take them on board as opposed to immediately curling up inside your shell as it were, you'd find people would quickly become less hostile, and your image would improve.
Also, from the last quote, you mentioned that you expect other factions to offer compromise, why exactly would you expect any faction to offer compromise when they have no need to, and all you have given out is hostility and whining? What I'm trying to say is; Do not expect others to help you to change, if you want to to change, do it yourselves, and if others voluntarily aid you, then great, but never expect them to.
I am not Lou.
What I typed was not a "whine". It was a statement aimed at Lou and Jinx as to where this topic would lead. It has led there.
Your comments about getting along have been taken aboard as feedback, past that it seems to be, hypocritically, a whine about a supposed whine.
And it is any consolation, there is a few lines in there which I will find very useful in the future no doubt.
My opinion? The person who said what sparked this discussion said what he said because he is frustrated that he cannot play his Zoner without having to deal with the consequences of the actions of the official Zoner factions and that of various independent Zoner players. He misses the time when he could log on and not have to deal with politics and just fly around exploring and such. I say this because I spoke to him months ago about this very subject, though I can't remember the conversation in full.
The fault in his statement is that he lays the blame on the official factions fully. When the blame truly lies with the official Zoner factions, various independent Zoner players, and other factions. No one forces people to treat Zoners in a certain way. When a Corsair feels like shooting at him, that isn't the fault of OSI, TAZ, or the Omicroners. That is the the choice of that player, and his choice is based on any number of things.
As for the topic at hand? While I find Hone to generally be a cool guy, he is utterly ignorant to Zoner lore and role play. Zoner's aren't a faction. They aren't a people. The term Zoner doesn't denote one's nationality. It is a term to describe a way of life. You don't use Zoner, like you do American or Mexican. Look at it more of like Conservative, Liberal, Catholic, etc etc. It is a belief system.
On the matter of Zoners power? I've always made the claim that Zoners are not a military power. Each Freeport/station is an enclave of like-minded individuals who are working together to survive and prosper. Their power comes from their ability to talk their way out of an issue or prove themselves useful to their would be aggressors. I, along with multiple other official Zoner faction leaders proposed that the Jinkusu be made SRP only (before SRPs were closed). This was blocked by various individuals claiming we were trying to nerf the Zoner NPC faction. You can ask anyone who knows me. If it was up to me, there wouldn't be an Aquilon or Jinkusu at all, but it isn't and I know there are those who are glad it isn't. I've been beating the crap out of Dab to make sure no more Zoner stations are added to the mod. I know other Zoner players who agree with that.
While I love Gran Canaria, a world to settle as their own and govern themselves is kind of the golden egg for those who have fled house space. Giving it to them was an extremely poor development decision.
The Zoners were extremely undeveloped by MS. This left a ton of leeway to the people who decided to role play them. There was an effort by Bluespawn and myself to develop the faction as Yuri did with the Keepers. To give it general guidelines and a fleshed out back story. We conferred with a ton of other Zoner players and I think Blue submitted it but I've heard nothing.
I said it the Zoner General chat. Zoners exist as they do now because the development team failed to develop them properly. Zoners were given a bunch of stuff that they then had to create lore to validate and they exist as they do now due to a ton of role play by a ton of different people.
Anyways, saying people can't role play an independent Zoner is a lie. There are more independent Zoners than there are faction Zoners. I rather like how things are now.
' Wrote:s. I, along with multiple other official Zoner faction leaders proposed that the Jinkusu be made SRP only (before SRPs were closed). This was blocked by various individuals claiming we were trying to nerf the Zoner NPC faction. You can ask anyone who knows me. If it was up to me, there wouldn't be an Aquilon or Jinkusu at all, but it isn't and I know there are those who are glad it isn't.
Actually, I think it was more along the factions and independents line.
I think my foresight was rather good on the issue, considering SRP is closed right now and does not look like it is coming back any time soon.
Zoner Juggernaut lore never made it rare. It only made it unseen. My own Juggernaut spends 95% of it's time in Omicron 74. I think that is good role-play. Of course, others think I am system camping for hours. Thank goodness I decided not to try and please everyone.
And no, it should not be restricted. My response to Gheis on the issue still stands. The current system for removing bad Juggernauts and Aquilons works.
' Wrote:I think the Zoners is a faction with a lot of freedom, and that having 3 Zoner factions allow each of them to act in different ways, it's not like the 3 of them must represent the whole NPC faction, I don't see anything wrong if one group decides to go a bit aside of what a Zoner is supposed to be (If we can ever agree on what a Zoner is supposed to be).
I think the problem we're facing is not necessarily an agreement on the ability for the factions to go in their own direction, but that when we get down to what it means to be a Zoner, who's ideas are closest to what should and shouldn't be? How do we determine when a Zoner faction has strayed from the lore when we cannot see fit to agree on what the lore is? As an OSI player, I'm very much of a mindset that we and the TAZ are closer to the mark. If you ask an Omicroner, they'll say they're closer. The Zoner players are in their respective factions because their ideologies fit within the framework of the faction better than the others, and the same goes for independents running their own show. That's all well and good, of course, but that still doesn't help us to decide what a Zoner is.
In my humble opinion, aside from the obvious geographic positioning of Zoners on the fringes of space, all I can conclude on how a Zoner should act is the following:
A Zoner's weapon is his words, not his guns.
This is how OSI forms its approach for roleplay. We fight our battles through diplomacy. As a corporation within the Zoner way of life, we prove our worth through making deals and trading our hind ends off. We do things tangible and provide evidence of our actions to those we make our deals with. Our influence is completely economic.
However, we also realize that we do not represent all of Zoners.
I said this before - I believe being a Zoner is encompassing of a way of life, it's not a nation with a government and representation and territory to claim. No-Fire-Zones mean nothing unless those factions they affect have reason to follow them. Zoner bases are useless unless they help everyone and at the same time no one.
Of course, I wouldn't do justice to the argument if I didn't make an attempt to clearly state - again, what I have perceived - both sides of the Zoner debate regarding the basis if what Zoners as a group are. I do very much invite Omicroner players to correct me on the following point if I have misspoken.
The Omicroners approach Zoners as a collective entity, one where ties of brotherhood and common strife would bring all Zoners together under one singular umbrella. They would have banded together under a common umbrella and begun to guard and protect their territory. Words are still used, but when a group attempts to strong-arm the Zoners, they push right back. Because of the centralization and shared knowledge coming from through Sirius, Zoners have access to the resources to construct ships and bases befitting a fledgling nation.
OSI approaches Zoners as a diverse group of people whose only shared interest among the entire group is that all wanted away from the Houses and their laws. Zoners are merely people looking to forge their own path among the stars. Due to said diversity and the wide range across which the "Zoner" populace is spread, Zoners as a whole would not form a centralized group, but instead certain factions would emerge as people sharing similar ideas began to find each other and clump together. Due to the vast political geography across Sirius, the necessity for the Zoner factions to remain autonomous and self-reliant is paramount.
That said, the above tact is why we had a group like the ZA. That was the then-ZTC's stage and that's where they felt comfortable. OSI played along for a while, and although we were fairly indifferent most of the time and didn't make too many waves, once we put together that we were going to have to pay for the aggressiveness of the Omicroners regarding the Freeport 1 and Corsairs situations, we went back to our ideas on Zoners, and chose to make our own diplomacy, more like that I described in the second. I imagine TAZ felt similarly, because they were the first to leave the ZA.
I won't speak on the situation with the CoZ as that was well before my time here.
All that said, I personally don't have an issue with the Omicroner's approach to Zoner roleplay as I perceive it as detailed above. I think having the different ideas promotes diversity and reinforces the fact that Zoners as a people are not homogeneous. My issues (finally getting around to fully answering your question of me, noobl3t) come with execution of said roleplay, support of claims made accompanying desired roleplay, and what seems to be a refusal to accept the consequences of actions by Omicroner players, both InRP and OORP.
We've beaten this horse many times to the point we're making equine pudding, but I suppose I'm going to have to start at the point with which I see Zoner ideals diverged visibly among the faction. Yeah, back to the ZA split. I'll cover a few examples here, if I were to scour every single point over the past nine months I'd be here until Wednesday.
On the subject of Freeport 1, we saw what was apparently an Omicroner carrying contraband and what was declared by Bretonian law to be an unauthorized ship traversing their space, which was caught by the Bretonian authorities. What I saw that followed was OORP threads on the forums complaining about Bretonia's treatment of said player and something about Zoner hate. InRP, the response was to mass attack craft in Omega-3.
Why could have the reaction not been completely InRP? Why could we have not sat down with some Bretonian leaders and had a chat about the circumstances, whether or not said character had or had not done anything wrong by law, and whether or not Omega-3 was really Bretonia's to claim? Instead, we saw a response that seemed just as much about being upset OORP as it did showing Bretonia "Zoner might". Why would we possibly go up against a House over a single person and a Freeport? We sold one Freeport to the IMG, and another Zoner base to Synth Foods, so it's not that we're going to hold on vise-tight to our bases. There's one example of where we thing lore was disrespected. Instead of using words, Zoners went in guns blazing. Now, grain of salt, I do realize that the problem was nonetheless exacerbated by the bandwagoning and such that followed, but the basis of that issue stems from within Zoner ranks.
Move on to the Corsairs. This has been covered in length already, I'll be brief. Lou himself blamed other players for not being on at the right times to see your food deliveries. I'm not going to debate the validity of the Omicroner deliveries, but as part of a trade faction I know very well that it's on the shoulders of the courier to take and present evidence of such work. In this case, Omicroners relied on lore and a hearsay argument, it was one group's word against another. The Omis didn't really sit down and attempt to work things out until the Corsairs began bombarding the Freeport. OSI attempted to step in, but we stepped back out again when we realized that whatever deals we worked with the Corsairs, you guys were going to be up-in-arms and ready to shoot down any Corsair you saw. As Zoners, we're at the mercy of our neighbors. Instead, you guys told the Corsairs to eff themselves, essentially, and Zoners don't have the strength to do that, especially since we'd dissolved the ZA by that point.. Out of roleplay, accusations of powergaming, Zoner hate, and bias flew. I think the only event I can say with certainty was powergaming was the destruction of the Freeport, which was nullified by the administration. Grain of salt, Corsairs were very demanding, but again, hostility was the first reaction, not possible diplomacy. Not until we got our hind-ends handed to us.
When it came to task with the BHG in Delta, Omiconers sided with the Order. Why would we side with the Order? You stuck to them so fast that it ended in the BHG declaring what was effectively war on all Zoners. Hell, we weren't even together as the ZA at that point and you still managed to get us all in some hot water. I read the transcripts from the encounters in Delta. You know what I refer to the entire situation as? Dumb. It should've have happened. But because the Omicroners were so quick to agitations and not diplomacy we had some sizable issues.
More recently, at the beginning of the GMG-Kusari conflict, GMG absolved the Zoners of responsibility for their supply, they had it covered. Valiant as it was, the Omicroners stuck their noses right in the middle of a conflict to which we had no business mixing with. If a Zoner is to work to be neutral, why then would we do something that dangerous in the heat of the moment to supply an ally who already told us that while help would be appreciated, it wasn't necessary? So that we could be more allied? Instead, it got Omicroners blacklisted in Kusari for a time, to which the Omicroners both inRP and OORP complained.
Functionally, I tend to see Omicroners on the playerlist sitting in O-74 lately. I'm not sure what y'all do back there, but i sure hope it's entertaining. Last night, Daedric made a note that there was an Omicroner barge in New Berlin last night, and that as he's been running around and we've been looking around, a lot of trading for Omcironer supply happens between BHG and Corsair bases, which makes absolutely no sense given that you folks have made a point that when we were supplying you that we get our material from source planets and that Zoner history with the BHG and Corsairs, especially with the Omicroners, have been rocky at best. I try to not take too much stock in the regularity of these actions given that I don't have any evidence on hand, just word from guys I trust, but the thought that this occurs makes me a little dubious as to whether you've really got a functional grasp of how things work in these parts.
And, to bring things together, I think Dab's pointed out how OORP, Omicroners are quick to point a finger but slow to ever take blame. Even when mistakes have been made, we see Lou quick to point fingers and slough off onto other people. Jinx will call up a thread that is clear to bring up some words that are going to be tough to swallow and when such happens, caves under the pressure and wants a lock. We can't discuss any of this with anyone under any terms, because as soon as we do, the general reaction is that instead of accepting that there might be some legitimacy to an argument, we get pointed out our fallacy and the criticism doesn't stick around long enough to be of any effect.
So, to summarize noobl3t, my biggest issue with the Omicroners is their inability to stomach consequences, which leads to to roleplay events which would not quite befit a Zoner faction, regardless of what any of us define Zoners as. Conflict with the Omicroners only ends one way - everyone loses. Neutrlity isn't earned, it's granted because factions get tired of your nonsense and OORP wailing. And when we try to talk about it, we're wrong, plain and simple. It's exasperating. It's why at least OSI, if nto more groups, has resigned to just tolerating our situation and not forming anything new, because when we do try to set aside our differences, we get reminded of how we wronged you in the past.
To take a page from Silver's book, I'm going to go get a drink.
' Wrote:My issues (finally getting around to fully answering your question of me, noobl3t) come with execution of said roleplay, support of claims made accompanying desired roleplay, and what seems to be a refusal to accept the consequences of actions by Omicroner players, both InRP and OORP.
We've beaten this horse many times to the point we're making equine pudding, but I suppose I'm going to have to start at the point with which I see Zoner ideals diverged visibly among the faction. Yeah, back to the ZA split. I'll cover a few examples here, if I were to scour every single point over the past nine months I'd be here until Wednesday.
On the subject of Freeport 1, we saw what was apparently an Omicroner carrying contraband and what was declared by Bretonian law to be an unauthorized ship traversing their space, which was caught by the Bretonian authorities. What I saw that followed was OORP threads on the forums complaining about Bretonia's treatment of said player and something about Zoner hate. InRP, the response was to mass attack craft in Omega-3.
Why could have the reaction not been completely InRP? Why could we have not sat down with some Bretonian leaders and had a chat about the circumstances, whether or not said character had or had not done anything wrong by law, and whether or not Omega-3 was really Bretonia's to claim? Instead, we saw a response that seemed just as much about being upset OORP as it did showing Bretonia "Zoner might". Why would we possibly go up against a House over a single person and a Freeport? We sold one Freeport to the IMG, and another Zoner base to Synth Foods, so it's not that we're going to hold on vise-tight to our bases. There's one example of where we thing lore was disrespected. Instead of using words, Zoners went in guns blazing. Now, grain of salt, I do realize that the problem was nonetheless exacerbated by the bandwagoning and such that followed, but the basis of that issue stems from within Zoner ranks.
Move on to the Corsairs. This has been covered in length already, I'll be brief. Lou himself blamed other players for not being on at the right times to see your food deliveries. I'm not going to debate the validity of the Omicroner deliveries, but as part of a trade faction I know very well that it's on the shoulders of the courier to take and present evidence of such work. In this case, Omicroners relied on lore and a hearsay argument, it was one group's word against another. The Omis didn't really sit down and attempt to work things out until the Corsairs began bombarding the Freeport. OSI attempted to step in, but we stepped back out again when we realized that whatever deals we worked with the Corsairs, you guys were going to be up-in-arms and ready to shoot down any Corsair you saw. As Zoners, we're at the mercy of our neighbors. Instead, you guys told the Corsairs to eff themselves, essentially, and Zoners don't have the strength to do that, especially since we'd dissolved the ZA by that point.. Out of roleplay, accusations of powergaming, Zoner hate, and bias flew. I think the only event I can say with certainty was powergaming was the destruction of the Freeport, which was nullified by the administration. Grain of salt, Corsairs were very demanding, but again, hostility was the first reaction, not possible diplomacy. Not until we got our hind-ends handed to us.
When it came to task with the BHG in Delta, Omiconers sided with the Order. Why would we side with the Order? You stuck to them so fast that it ended in the BHG declaring what was effectively war on all Zoners. Hell, we weren't even together as the ZA at that point and you still managed to get us all in some hot water. I read the transcripts from the encounters in Delta. You know what I refer to the entire situation as? Dumb. It should've have happened. But because the Omicroners were so quick to agitations and not diplomacy we had some sizable issues.
More recently, at the beginning of the GMG-Kusari conflict, GMG absolved the Zoners of responsibility for their supply, they had it covered. Valiant as it was, the Omicroners stuck their noses right in the middle of a conflict to which we had no business mixing with. If a Zoner is to work to be neutral, why then would we do something that dangerous in the heat of the moment to supply an ally who already told us that while help would be appreciated, it wasn't necessary? So that we could be more allied? Instead, it got Omicroners blacklisted in Kusari for a time, to which the Omicroners both inRP and OORP complained.
Functionally, I tend to see Omicroners on the playerlist sitting in O-74 lately. I'm not sure what y'all do back there, but i sure hope it's entertaining. Last night, Daedric made a note that there was an Omicroner barge in New Berlin last night, and that as he's been running around and we've been looking around, a lot of trading for Omcironer supply happens between BHG and Corsair bases, which makes absolutely no sense given that you folks have made a point that when we were supplying you that we get our material from source planets and that Zoner history with the BHG and Corsairs, especially with the Omicroners, have been rocky at best. I try to not take too much stock in the regularity of these actions given that I don't have any evidence on hand, just word from guys I trust, but the thought that this occurs makes me a little dubious as to whether you've really got a functional grasp of how things work in these parts.
And, to bring things together, I think Dab's pointed out how OORP, Omicroners are quick to point a finger but slow to ever take blame. Even when mistakes have been made, we see Lou quick to point fingers and slough off onto other people. Jinx will call up a thread that is clear to bring up some words that are going to be tough to swallow and when such happens, caves under the pressure and wants a lock. We can't discuss any of this with anyone under any terms, because as soon as we do, the general reaction is that instead of accepting that there might be some legitimacy to an argument, we get pointed out our fallacy and the criticism doesn't stick around long enough to be of any effect.
So, to summarize noobl3t, my biggest issue with the Omicroners is their inability to stomach consequences, which leads to to roleplay events which would not quite befit a Zoner faction, regardless of what any of us define Zoners as. Conflict with the Omicroners only ends one way - everyone loses. Neutrlity isn't earned, it's granted because factions get tired of your nonsense and OORP wailing. And when we try to talk about it, we're wrong, plain and simple. It's exasperating. It's why at least OSI, if nto more groups, has resigned to just tolerating our situation and not forming anything new, because when we do try to set aside our differences, we get reminded of how we wronged you in the past.
To take a page from Silver's book, I'm going to go get a drink.
Understood. Me and Jinx will take this feedback on board as well. Thank you for that.
I am going to ask Omicroner players to desist posting in this thread for now. I doubt any more feedback will be useful.
' Wrote:Actually, I think it was more along the factions and independents line.
I think my foresight was rather good on the issue, considering SRP is closed right now and does not look like it is coming back any time soon.
Zoner Juggernaut lore never made it rare. It only made it unseen. My own Juggernaut spends 95% of it's time in Omicron 74. I think that is good role-play. Of course, others think I am system camping for hours. Thank goodness I decided not to try and please everyone.
And no, it should not be restricted. My response to Gheis on the issue still stands. The current system for removing bad Juggernauts and Aquilons works.
That is your opinion of it. Many independent Zoner players agreed with what was suggested. I don't think your foresight was good because I think the Jinkusu should still be restricted, so that is is more rare (or in your words unseen) and less abused by people.
Again, not being restricted or being restricted is a matter of opinion. Problem people have with most of what you say is that you say it as if it is fact, not just your opinion.
Opinion. That is what it all boils down to with Zoners. There is no clear and cut information that says what is and what isn't proper Zoner role play. Most of the info cards are vague at best. They only have a few clear points in them. Not enough to give a clear picture of what Zoners were meant to be. Thus people's opinion of what they should be took the place of non existent information.
People need to accept that fact. Opinion of what a Zoner is, is what defines what a Zoner is.
' Wrote:That is your opinion of it. Many independent Zoner players agreed with what was suggested. I don't think your foresight was good because I think the Jinkusu should still be restricted, so that is is more rare (or in your words unseen) and less abused by people.
Again, not being restricted or being restricted is a matter of opinion. Problem people have with most of what you say is that you say it as if it is fact, not just your opinion.
Opinion. That is what it all boils down to with Zoners. There is no clear and cut information that says what is and what isn't proper Zoner role play. Most of the info cards are vague at best. They only have a few clear points in them. Not enough to give a clear picture of what Zoners were meant to be. Thus people's opinion of what they should be took the place of non existent information.
People need to accept that fact. Opinion of what a Zoner is, is what defines what a Zoner is.
Talking about Juggernauts here specifically, not Zoner role-play. Try not to confuse the two, despite how related they are.
The infocard does not state they are rare.
You can think all you want about my foresight Cross, point is SRP is closed, and the three Zoner factions will never unanimously agree to restrict it.
' Wrote:Talking about Juggernauts here specifically, not Zoner role-play. Try not to confuse the two, despite how related they are.
The infocard does not state they are rare.
You can think all you want about my foresight Cross, point is SRP is closed, and the three Zoner factions will never unanimously agree to restrict it.
The info card was written by a community member, not by the original developer. It can be changed to say whatever it is we want it to say. Do note, I didn't say they need to be rare in the sense of there being two of them. I said they need to be rare in the sense they aren't sitting in front of Manhatten. That is exactly how you said they should be used.
I feel without restricting them, people will continue to abuse them and park them in front of places like Manhatten. There is no system in place to prevent this. They get blown up sure. What stops them from going back? Nothing. Could we try to use Faction Right 2 to order them not to? Sure and it would be easy to justify in role play. Will it work? Doubtful, I've not seen a player lose a Jinkusu for breaking an FR2 order.
You think they don't need to be restricted and I know others agree with you. I think they should and others agree with me. This was the case back when the restriction was proposed. A compromise was then suggested:
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